Chat Does the game really work out your tactic?

[phila]

Ive always assumed that the longer you play a career the game eventually works out how to nullify your tactic. Certainly it does experiment with different formations/roles and so eventually you would assume this would be the case. However Im not certain that's all that is going on.

Ive always wondered about this so In my latest career I'm trialling a new tactic (using LFC), Ive been inspired to test this out. Towards the end of 2017-2018 season I noticed that my matches were getting closer and closer. So instead of winning by margins of 3 or 4 goals, I was struggling to get 2 goals. So May 2018 I won a game with 3 times as many shots on goal and 3 clear cut chances but won 2-1. I decided to replay it and see what would happen. I replayed it 10 times and I was unable to better this score but had at least the same amount of CCC. I started up Jays SE and checked my forwards (all aged around 25-26) - 20 shooting, high consistency and pressure scores. So I would assume that they should be able to put the ball in the back of the net. In addition to this, the opposition played the same formation against me each time and responded the same way each time when I tweaked the formation/roles during the match.

Oct 18, same career same results. Basic formation has stayed the same. Replayed same match 10 times and 1-0 in every one of them. 2 or more CCC in  every game but the forwards couldn't get the ball in the back of the net.

Nov 18 same career same results. Best I could manage was 1-0 with 4 CCC and 11 shots on goal. In fact one replay I had 21-0 shots on goal (inc 5 CCC) and I drew 1-1. Yep they scored with no shots on goal. Even allowing for that being a bug, its makes you wonder why the goals have dried up. I think what is happening is that the game is applying a percentage handicap to the forwards to slow down their scoring (a lot of my goals have started to come from the APM/wingers).

Im now into 2-18-2019 season and noticed that even though my midfield were racking up massive amount more possession the game was recording the overall possession stats as being about the same eg 2 of my midfielders consistently totaled more passes between them than the entire opposition but match recorded possession as being 51-49. Again what I think is happening is that the game started to hit my midfield with handicaps too. So I have responded by changing their roles and seen a corresponding change in match results. I have a few ideas of how to play around with this so am going to try them out

Note the underlying assumption here is that a clear cut chance (CCC) should be pretty certain to be a goal in the normal run of things.

[DarthTrone]

On enhanced they learn on original they dont (at least I think its like that)

[vbase]

I assumed that too happen as well. I saw some stories on the story board and noticed with every progressing season, their teams become better and score more goals or at least have better results. I thought once the game progressed, the players learnt to adapt to their roles or at least get familiar with the tactic but that's not what has happened. 

To build up on your findings, I won the Bundesliga with Dortmund on the very last match day being the team with the 2nd most goal fors (10 short to Bayern) and assumed that since I had a major reorganization (brought in Morata and Mahrez and let a lot of players go including Reus), it will take the new players some time to settle in and get familiar with the tactic. Contrary to that, the team actually performed much better at the beginning winning matches by a margin of 2-3 goals and as the season progressed, the team became dull and started scoring less and conceding more.

I am in the next season now, 2nd season, and similar to your game, my strikers can't find the back of the net with even 11-12 shots on target against very small teams. For a few games, I hardly won. After that I changed my tactic, and saw some change but again after 5-6 games, it came back to not scoring at all. The same striker, same team, same tactic that scored me goals against bigger teams like Bayern and top Euro Cup teams can't even get me through against smaller (promoted) sides.

I also check my players stats, the team harmony, training and each player individually for any negative points or "unhappiness" but couldn't find any. I can't really think of why such a thing would happen.

As stated by some people, the AI learns about your tactic and then tries to find counters to that but I completely disagree, not that the AI might not learn but to the fact that the even if it does learn, it cannot create the "perfect" tactic to block every possible move from my tactic. Right now, even new tactics stop working after 5-6 games. If the AI can build a tactic against mine, shouldn't my players also have become more familiar to their roles than before? Another thing is, even if the AI does learn, it cannot teach the keeper to defend better or anything like that. Even in 1-on-1 situations with my striker and the opposition keeper, my striker just can't get past through the keeper. So if the AI does learn to tackle my tactics, how come my striker can still get to the goal?

[Dar J]

9 hours ago, vbase said:

I assumed that too happen as well. I saw some stories on the story board and noticed with every progressing season, their teams become better and score more goals or at least have better results. I thought once the game progressed, the players learnt to adapt to their roles or at least get familiar with the tactic but that's not what has happened. 

To build up on your findings, I won the Bundesliga with Dortmund on the very last match day being the team with the 2nd most goal fors (10 short to Bayern) and assumed that since I had a major reorganization (brought in Morata and Mahrez and let a lot of players go including Reus), it will take the new players some time to settle in and get familiar with the tactic. Contrary to that, the team actually performed much better at the beginning winning matches by a margin of 2-3 goals and as the season progressed, the team became dull and started scoring less and conceding more.

I am in the next season now, 2nd season, and similar to your game, my strikers can't find the back of the net with even 11-12 shots on target against very small teams. For a few games, I hardly won. After that I changed my tactic, and saw some change but again after 5-6 games, it came back to not scoring at all. The same striker, same team, same tactic that scored me goals against bigger teams like Bayern and top Euro Cup teams can't even get me through against smaller (promoted) sides.

I also check my players stats, the team harmony, training and each player individually for any negative points or "unhappiness" but couldn't find any. I can't really think of why such a thing would happen.

As stated by some people, the AI learns about your tactic and then tries to find counters to that but I completely disagree, not that the AI might not learn but to the fact that the even if it does learn, it cannot create the "perfect" tactic to block every possible move from my tactic. Right now, even new tactics stop working after 5-6 games. If the AI can build a tactic against mine, shouldn't my players also have become more familiar to their roles than before? Another thing is, even if the AI does learn, it cannot teach the keeper to defend better or anything like that. Even in 1-on-1 situations with my striker and the opposition keeper, my striker just can't get past through the keeper. So if the AI does learn to tackle my tactics, how come my striker can still get to the goal?

What you two have said may be right but look at in real life, you can't score from every shot even if they are one on ones and the fact that you have the same team doesn't mean you would be better example real Madrid they had the players of last year but in my opinion they underperformed this year don't know why. I know it's a game but we should also think of it as if it was in real life.

I was complaining of the wingers because they don't get assists from most of their crosses and lots of them don't even finish in the box then I taught about wingers in real life and they don't get assists from every cross and non all their crosses finish in the box

[vbase]

6 hours ago, Dar J said:

What you two have said may be right but look at in real life, you can't score from every shot even if they are one on ones and the fact that you have the same team doesn't mean you would be better example real Madrid they had the players of last year but in my opinion they underperformed this year don't know why. I know it's a game but we should also think of it as if it was in real life.

I was complaining of the wingers because they don't get assists from most of their crosses and lots of them don't even finish in the box then I taught about wingers in real life and they don't get assists from every cross and non all their crosses finish in the box

I completely understand your point of view but I disagree with it. I do know that even in real life the footballers can't score with every shot on goal or create an assist with every pass/cross but first of all, this is not real life, its a game, second, it can happen in exceptional matches where you have as many as 10 goals or 4-5 1-on-1 with the keepers and not score a goal. This depends on the form of both the keeper and the attacker but this cannot be the case with each and every match during the season. Not every keeper has a good day everyday. 

Here's an example of what I mean, my most recent match:

There is a very small chance in real life example when a game is this one-sided and there are still no goals. I had most of the possession, 21 shots of which 12 were on target, that too in match where the opponent team lost one of their players due to a red card in the 10th minute. Let's, for the sake of argument, say that the opponent defenders and keeper were have a good game or are good players but so are mine. I too have two of the best strikers in the game (Morata, Barbosa) with two quality IFs (Maherz and Perisic), yet I still fail to score.

Again, if you consider Leverkusen a good team or its players good, it is acceptable but it is not acceptable to have the same result and stats with every team in the league even the ones that just got promoted.

The part about having the same team, what I meant to say was that by now they should have learned the tactic and there's no one unfamiliar with the tactic or their teammates. 

[Scott]

The A.I work out tactics? How by playing players in roles/positions that they can't play in, in the very limited number of tactics the A.I use?

 

[UKFootballScore]

Regarding that Dortmund vs. Leverkusen match how many shots did Mahrez and Perisic have? As although they might be on target shots if they are from long range, most will be as coming from wide, it will be a relatively easy save for the keeper and of course the long range shots will often be off target aswell 

My point is expect alot of shots per goal when playing with inside forwards 

[Ashez]

6 hours ago, UKFootballScore said:

Regarding that Dortmund vs. Leverkusen match how many shots did Mahrez and Perisic have? As although they might be on target shots if they are from long range, most will be as coming from wide, it will be a relatively easy save for the keeper and of course the long range shots will often be off target aswell 

My point is expect alot of shots per goal when playing with inside forwards 

Which is why we need control. We should be able to tell our players how we want them to play instead of being forced into what SI want us to use. The ability to man Mark, turn long range shooting off and more "toggle options" from within a role would erase so many issues. 

[phila]

Whilst I understand you cant score from every shot, CCC is supposed to indicate a shot which has a good chance of scoring (as opposed to a long range pile driver). I replayed each match 10 times to (as much as possible) remove the element of chance from my conclusions. And yet in every case the amount of CCCs never dropped below 2 but I was thankful if I could score 1 goal. This suggest that it is more to this than just the standard "my team had an off day" (or the opposition goalie had a brilliant day).

[Ashez]

From my experience the EME just hides the issues everyone complained about on the OME better due to the CCC counter. It's just as random as you can score an non CCC and miss CCC, granted you can in real life but it's the same issues the OME has. We still struggle to score for the stats shown to us and of which we're meant to be working with. 

As I said above this is where more control would help us. ISF's are next to useless if they decided to shoot on site yet we can't set them to keep hold of the ball. Decisions like this can make or break a tactic in some ways yet the decision is forced upon us. 

We are meant to be the manager but how much control do we really have? SI are the managers, we're just the assistants  

I understand the PSP system is a lot more complicated across the board but it allowed creativity, uniqueness and for us to play how we wanted and not how SI wanted us to. I've moaned for two years that we're forced into certain ideas due to how bland the options are. 

[vbase]

@UKFootballScore That was with a Balanced mentality and I didn't get a screenshot of the players' statistics page but from with the same tactic from the next few matches, I found out that the most shots taken at goal are by my striker (CF) and my AMC (AP).

@Ashez Yes, player instructions would be nice but I don't see it coming in 2017.

[UKFootballScore]

More control is needed for sure 

Things like corners piss me off as I can't do anything about it at all so can't manage it

And the free kicks, penalties. That you can't set while in a match but can on OME and when the match goes to pens I should be able to select my takers for it but can't