Chat Don't get too excited for FMM2017

[Jack Joyce]

I can't confirm any new features as that's up to the marketing team. But I'm confident that there will be plenty of changes/improvements to be happy about come release day..

[Fish18ish]

The one thing we can safely all get hyped about is all the wonderful new bugs that SI has no doubt got in store for us...

Found another one today, when I say no on the send player on loan confirmation message, the player's 'offer contract option ' on his profile disappears and it permanently says he has a future transfer to the team whose loan agreement I cancelled.

[Ashez]

19 hours ago, Jack Joyce said:

The processing that happens when you change tactics is where it calculates every kick of the ball and every AI tactical change that happens for the rest of the match (after it works this all out, it then works out and plays the highlights from the match). It is done this way is for performance reasons (phones would struggle to do this as the match-viewer is running). I agree that it can be a bit annoying, but as newer and more powerful phones come out this should speed up more and more.

So it is predetermined as the match is decided during the processing at the start of play? It's not kick by kick as we watch it if everything is decided by the time we see it? Sure you can change fate potentially by making a sub/change but by time you see any impact it's been predetermined? 

How is any of what you just said kick by kick? How are we meant to react to anything when it's not happening live but already decided?

Or am I somehow misunderstanding what you've posted here?

[Jack Joyce]

11 minutes ago, Ashez said:

So it is predetermined as the match is decided during the processing at the start of play? It's not kick by kick as we watch it if everything is decided by the time we see it? Sure you can change fate potentially by making a sub/change but by time you see any impact it's been predetermined? 

How is any of what you just said kick by kick? How are we meant to react to anything when it's not happening live but already decided?

Or am I somehow misunderstanding what you've posted here?

I think you're misunderstanding what we mean by the term kick-by-kick. Every kick/run etc of the match is calculated, hence 'kick-by-kick'. As soon as you make any change, everything is re-calculated based on the new line-ups/tactics. There is literally no difference between calculating every kick of the game at the beginning of the match or as it's being shown to you, since the calculations are the same either way (this is fairly trivial from a mathematical/computational standpoint, I'm not sure how to explain it better, sorry). Since the match would be exactly the same either way, the only reason to choose one way over the other is for performance reasons.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Jack Joyce

[Ashez]

But that still says the match is determined before it's started? When you start a match during that processing screen it's calculating what will happen, which means by time match starts that's predetermined, people rarely make subs in first half so for example that first half is done second the original processing has finished, we just have to watch it unfold. Then the plan will stay the same during the second half unless you make a change, that change will be recalculated and could/will change the outcome/fate of what the game originally planned. 

So it's all decided in that original processing unless you make a change which just spits out a different outcome which again is decided way before the final minute of the match. 

 

[billy2shots]

I had this exact debate with Jack last week Ash. He is obviously an intelligent guy so I decided he was being bloody minded about the subject and unwilling to admit the obvious.

The result IS predetermined from set points. Every time you or the AI change something the calculation is made again and is predetermined from that point on (unless another change is made by either player) It's pretty straight forward but Jack will not state it that simply and hints at things being random right up to the final whistle. 

[Jack Joyce]

Yes, it's less "what the game originally planned" and more how the game would play out if you made literally no tactical changes during the match. Again, as anyone with a background in programming/algorithms would tell you, this has exactly the same result as doing the calculations as it's being 'displayed'. The exact same kicks/fouls/shots/goals etc would happen whether it was calculated at the start or as it's shown.

Again, it's not just 'spitting out a different result', it's calculating every touch/kick/shot/pass etc based on the new tactics/lineups. It's sort of like watching a stream of a real life football match, you're a few seconds behind but you still see the same thing (obviously any tactical changes you make affect the game, so this analogy isn't perfect).

Edited September 27, 2016 by Jack Joyce

[billy2shots]

Jack you have completely reversed on what you stood by last week.

'The exact same kicks/fouls/shots/goals etc would happen whether it was calculated at the start or as it's shown. '

 

Do you remember I broke it down very simply and used a penalty kick as an example. I argued that if you could save during a match and replay that penalty over and over the outcome would be the same (taking into account no changes were made by player or AI). You said no it was random and nothing was decided until it happens so the penalty would be scored sometimes and missed others.

 

Very disappointed to say the least. 

Edited September 27, 2016 by billy2shots

[UKFootballScore]

So an instant result button could be implemented and just spit out a result If we wanted to do that? That would be good I think for friendlies and easy games and would give the casual player a chance to smash out some games really quickly

[Jack Joyce]

8 minutes ago, billy2shots said:

Jack you have completely reversed on what you stood by last week.

'The exact same kicks/fouls/shots/goals etc would happen whether it was calculated at the start or as it's shown. '

 

Do you remember I broke it down very simply and used a penalty kick as an example. I argued that if you could save during a match and replay that penalty over and over the outcome would be the same (taking into account no changes were made by player or AI). You said no it was random and nothing was decided until it happens so the penalty would be scored sometimes and missed others.

 

Very disappointed to say the least. 

This analogy doesn't really work, because if such a feature existed we would re-calculate from the load point. But (similar-ish example) let's say that you have a game where the exact same sequence of events happened every time if you made no changes whatsoever (this wouldn't happen, but lets pretend :P). If you changed your tactics at any point, there would be different things happening each time. Even if those tactical changes were exactly the same.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Jack Joyce

[Jack Joyce]

3 minutes ago, UKFootballScore said:

So an instant result button could be implemented and just spit out a result If we wanted to do that? That would be good I think for friendlies and easy games and would give the casual player a chance to smash out some games really quickly

This technically could be possible, but the game would be assuming that you made no tactical changes. You can set your assistant to handle friendlies though for a similar effect. Could ask for this in the wish-list thread on our forums though!

[billy2shots]

Again Jack you are totally steering away from the point and choosing not to answer the question.

The example is very clear, from a set point absolutely no changes are made. The result and outcome has been predetermined. That set point is the last point that any subs, tactics etc have been made and nothing is changed from that point on by AI or human. 

The rest of the match has been calculated and would play out the same 100 times out of 100.

Can you please finally confirm that.

[Jack Joyce]

2 minutes ago, billy2shots said:

Again Jack you are totally steering away from the point and choosing not to answer the question.

The example is very clear, from a set point absolutely no changes are made. The result and outcome has been predetermined. That set point is the last point that any subs, tactics etc have been made and nothing is changed from that point on by AI or human. 

The rest of the match has been calculated and would play out the same 100 times out of 100.

Can you please finally confirm that.

It's not as simple as that though, because you can't play any part of a game "100 times out of 100". If a feature existed that let you load mid-match, the game would recalculate everything and end up with different results. I can't confirm a hypothetical situation that currently isn't possible in the game.

[Ashez]

Thanks for the quick and easy responses @Jack Joyce, I did expect more twists and turns tbh but this is a nice change of pace, just right down to business and the facts. 

Sometimes passion can the blurr the lines but personally I'm delighted SI have started putting in a real effort here. Things can get heated as frustration with something we love soon turns sour but all your time here is appreciated. 

Simmed matches was confirmed as never happening last year, Marc was pretty tough on the suggestion from memory. Not sure what I think about the idea, beats the point of the game but with how boring I'm finding FMM now it could be a good feature. Tbh all you'd need to do is make assistances competent/hireable etc so we could holiday and actually have a chance of getting a result and playing how we want to. But like I said it does beat the point of the game, I do lean against its inclusion tbh. 

[Jack Joyce]

Just now, Ashez said:

Thanks for the quick and easy responses @Jack Joyce, I did expect more twists and turns tbh but this is a nice change of pace, just right down to business and the facts. 

Sometimes passion can the blurr the lines but personally I'm delighted SI have started putting in a real effort here. Things can get heated as frustration with something we love soon turns sour but all your time here is appreciated. 

Simmed matches was confirmed as never happening last year, Marc was pretty tough on the suggestion from memory. Not sure what I think about the idea, beats the point of the game but with how boring I'm finding FMM now it could be a good feature. Tbh all you'd need to do is make assistances competent/hireable etc so we could holiday and actually have a chance of getting a result and playing how we want to. But like I said it does beat the point of the game, I do lean against its inclusion tbh. 

You're very welcome! It's nice to know that our efforts on the forum is appreciated. I can't always answer everything though since we are incredibly busy this year, so don't be offended if I miss things. 

You're right about simmed matches, we tend to shy away from such a feature since it sort of 'cheapens' the experience. However if a large amount of people suggest such a feature then we would take notice.

[Ashez]

3 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

You're very welcome! It's nice to know that our efforts on the forum is appreciated. I can't always answer everything though since we are incredibly busy this year, so don't be offended if I miss things. 

You're right about simmed matches, we tend to shy away from such a feature since it sort of 'cheapens' the experience. However if a large amount of people suggest such a feature then we would take notice.

I've been pushing for you guys to be more involved for as long as I can remember. You make the game so who better to speak to about it lol. 

I understand it must be tough here at times but we're the fanboys of your game after all . I understand the frustrations on both sides, like when we need answers you can't give it does make the relationship tough with all the friction but Vibe and more importantly the game will be better with you guys here, I'm 100% certain of that. I geeked out the first time a SI staffer spoke directly to me on here, it was Marc years ago but it was amazing to know I was having an impact not only with the community but with the people making the game I loved. It's something we aren't used to yet also take for granted, I'm sure it'll get smooth as we get used to it. 

Posted an article on the 442 bug if you fancy a read at some point, in 2016 chat if you're interested  

[Jack Joyce]

1 minute ago, Ashez said:

I've been pushing for you guys to be more involved for as long as I can remember. You make the game so who better to speak to about it lol. 

I understand it must be tough here at times but we're the fanboys of your game after all . I understand the frustrations on both sides, like when we need answers you can't give it does make the relationship tough with all the friction but Vibe and more importantly the game will be better with you guys here, I'm 100% certain of that. I geeked out the first time a SI staffer spoke directly to me on here, it was Marc years ago but it was amazing to know I was having an impact not only with the community but with the people making the game I loved. It's something we aren't used to yet also take for granted, I'm sure it'll get smooth as we get used to it. 

Posted an article on the 442 bug if you fancy a read at some point, in 2016 chat if you're interested  

I'm definitely trying to make sure that I answer as many questions as possible on here, I should be able to respond more often once the game is released (we're working extremely hard this year to make the game as good as possible ). I agree that it is important for both players and staff though.

The 442 bug is something that I've talked about a few times before and unfortunately I can't always be sure of what I'm allowed to say. But rest assured that we are definitely working on it, the problem is very complicated though (AI stuff generally is unfortunately) so when any changes do go in feedback with long-term saves would be very helpful. I can go into more detail at a later point regarding feedback.

[Ashez]

As I said it is appreciated even if sometimes we don't show it. The reason I'm here and not on SI forums is because we can talk a little more freely if that makes sense. From experience I've found the SI forums toxic for anyone who has a bad word to say about FMM, granted I haven't been near the place since like 2014 early 2015 but Vibe is my home and the heart of the community. You should play apart here in my opinion so I'm glad you are. 

My article isn't about bashing the bug as such but more about highlighting the issues the bug brings with it. But if you're sick of hearing about it I can understand and somewhat relate to that  

[Jack Joyce]

3 minutes ago, Ashez said:

As I said it is appreciated even if sometimes we don't show it. The reason I'm here and not on SI forums is because we can talk a little more freely if that makes sense. From experience I've found the SI forums toxic for anyone who has a bad word to say about FMM, granted I haven't been near the place since like 2014 early 2015 but Vibe is my home and the heart of the community. You should play apart here in my opinion so I'm glad you are. 

My article isn't about bashing the bug as such but more about highlighting the issues the bug brings with it. But if you're sick of hearing about it I can understand and somewhat relate to that  

I had a quick read of the post and I do agree with the knock-on effects it has on the game. I can't say anything other than 'we're working on it' though so I'm likely to avoid this topic for now. 

Examples of this bug are not very useful right now for us either (for future reference to save you guys time), so it's best to hold back on sending us them until 17's release.

[Ashez]

4 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

I had a quick read of the post and I do agree with the knock-on effects it has on the game. I can't say anything other than 'we're working on it' though so I'm likely to avoid this topic for now. 

Examples of this bug are not very useful right now for us either (for future reference to save you guys time), so it's best to hold back on sending us them until 17's release.

Haha, understood. 

At the risk of opening an unbelievable can of worms I have one final question. 

With what we've established today the match is determined during the processing screen. So anything that happens is decided then and won't change unless you change something. However what happens when the AI forces you into a change? 

For example during the processing screen the game works out the "current outcome" which will be followed, but in that current plan your player gets injured. This forces you into a change which in turn forces the processing screen to produce a "new outcome". 

Isn't that like a tad iffy? The AI can completely change any match just by injuring your player? I get injuries change matches in real life but IRL it's not say the FA randomly deciding your player will now be injured. Is there any protection to stop the AI screwing you in such a way? Are injuries handled by something else so they don't interfere with each other? The original plan could suggest a 1-0 win with an injury on the 60th min, but that injury being there would mean the game would know it would have to recalculate the result no? 

Not sure if my point comes across as struggling to write it but that idea makes me rather uncomfortable. We already have the engine deciding we will waste 10 shots on target but can it also screw us in ways such as this? 

[Jack Joyce]

I'll try to explain this in simple 'non-coding' terms but it can lead to misunderstandings (bear with me):

• The AI can't decide to injure your player, their decision-making is completely separate to the match engine and is just changes to their own tactics/substitutions.
• The match engine takes two sets of teams/tactics and calculates the entire match, with every kick, pass, run etc. It doesn't have any 'AI' other than the player's decisions e.g. shoot or pass? So it doesn't actually know who the real player's team is, nor does it need to.
• If the match engine (as an example) is calculating the result of an attempted tackle and your player ends up injured, then the game will ask for your changes then recalculate from there (because it can't predict what changes you will make, this processing is unavoidable). It doesn't 'decide' to make an injury, it can just happen if a tackle goes wrong.
• I think that most of the misunderstandings regarding the match engine/tactics side of the game is to do with knowing how AI works in a game like this. It's difficult to explain but you have to ditch the idea of the AI 'cheating'. If the AI happens to use a tactic that you consider OP, then the problem is with the tactic itself, not the AI (that tactic will also be OP for you). The AI doesn't know the game better than a human, I see this suggested every now and then in the forums but it's not true. This goes for both tactics and asking your assistant to pick your team, if their choices seem weird, it's because their choices were weird. Not because they know something you don't. 
• It's not quite the engine 'deciding you will waste 10 shots on target', but more the game calculating a match that had 10 individual shots that just happened to all end up not being a goal. This can happen for various reasons (player skill, keeper ability, bad luck) but at no point does the game go "we're going to make them miss a ton of shots".

Edited September 28, 2016 by Jack Joyce

[Ashez]

Excellent response, top draw mate. 

As for the AI knowing the game better I do think that's a fair point but only for one reason. The AI knows what each role does and how it acts/programmed yet we as human players have no idea apart from guess work. We have real life knowledge but my opinion might not match yours of what say an ISF does. We have so little information while the game will naturally know what each does, you'd have made each team/tactic use whatever role for whatever reason and so on. 

If you want to know why we are basing everything on guess work and fan theories? It's for the simple reason this is the first time ever someone from SI has been open and honest with us from my knowledge. We've asked similar questions before and been ignored or brushed aside, you however have answered the questions. I don't recall anyone ever being this open with us and willing to chat about the game. In the long run this confusion has had a negative impact as I'm sure you feel but I'm loving this new approach. 

[Jack Joyce]

The role issue is awkward because we want the game to be accessible to casual users, where a short explanation of what the role does is easier to understand than a bunch of sliders. But that does have the knock-on effect where 'hardcore' players will want to know exactly what does what. 

The roles can perform differently depending on the player you use e.g. if you have a super low teamwork playmaker then it won't work out well.  I'd say that if you have any specific roles that you don't think are behaving the way they should, then please give us examples and explain exactly what you think the role should do compared with what it seems to be doing. We want the roles to be as intuitive as possible so if there's confusion then we would want to know exactly where and why.

[Ashez]

Yeah I can understand all that, tbh while I don't know what each role does to a T in game I am happy in my own knowledge, yes I want more options but I'm from the PSP days so yeah. However I see issues with new players or those not as tactically interested in real football getting lost, which they do and answering such questions is a big part of Vibe when I don't feel like it should be, not all FMM players will find Vibe or be interested enough to go looking for help. 

How can we say a role isn't working when we don't really know what it should be doing? If people sent you messages every time something felt off you'd get nowhere lol. I do feel it's impossible to help as we don't know what the player should be doing by SI's designed role, then we also don't know how his actual stats impacts how the role is played and so on. It's impossible for us to help unless the issue is obvious like ISFs always staying wide etc. To me the confusion and frustration is the lack of information and the lack of options, I do think they go hand in hand. 

[Dec]

14 minutes ago, Ashez said:

Yeah I can understand all that, tbh while I don't know what each role does to a T in game I am happy in my own knowledge, yes I want more options but I'm from the PSP days so yeah. However I see issues with new players or those not as tactically interested in real football getting lost, which they do and answering such questions is a big part of Vibe when I don't feel like it should be, not all FMM players will find Vibe or be interested enough to go looking for help. 

How can we say a role isn't working when we don't really know what it should be doing? If people sent you messages every time something felt off you'd get nowhere lol. I do feel it's impossible to help as we don't know what the player should be doing by SI's designed role, then we also don't know how his actual stats impacts how the role is played and so on. It's impossible for us to help unless the issue is obvious like ISFs always staying wide etc. To me the confusion and frustration is the lack of information and the lack of options, I do think they go hand in hand. 

We need 3 stages to this:

1) Better explanations in help "i"

2) Assistant feedback more reliable (on player profile) and common such as assistant recommends several players with an ability rating like FM on tactic sceeen for the role. As well as in news assistants give tactical advice on common issues with tactics but are general in feedback to make it a challenge still. For example "We are utilising Marcus Rashford wrong with the Target Man role. you should consider using a different role that suits his pace and shooting"

3) Highlighting of attributes in profiles and a quick search of roles in player search that scales based on Top 5 players' abilities in the role.

 

This would help new users and old users alike and make everything clearer without slowing the game down at all.

[UKFootballScore]

This conversation had made me feel so much better towards SI in general! It's amazing what a bit of interaction with fans does

[UKFootballScore]

As far as saving while in a match goes when the game processes the whole game as you say surely it can be saved as a pkm file and loaded up to be played on from that moment as the rest the game is already done so can be just re loaded from that position? 

 

[Jack Joyce]

16 minutes ago, Ashez said:

Yeah I can understand all that, tbh while I don't know what each role does to a T in game I am happy in my own knowledge, yes I want more options but I'm from the PSP days so yeah. However I see issues with new players or those not as tactically interested in real football getting lost, which they do and answering such questions is a big part of Vibe when I don't feel like it should be, not all FMM players will find Vibe or be interested enough to go looking for help. 

How can we say a role isn't working when we don't really know what it should be doing? If people sent you messages every time something felt off you'd get nowhere lol. I do feel it's impossible to help as we don't know what the player should be doing by SI's designed role, then we also don't know how his actual stats impacts how the role is played and so on. It's impossible for us to help unless the issue is obvious like ISFs always staying wide etc. To me the confusion and frustration is the lack of information and the lack of options, I do think they go hand in hand. 

I understand what you're saying, but what I mean is that if many people are confusing a role to mean something that it's not, then we either need to improve the role description or change how that role works. e.g. if 1/2 people misunderstand what a poacher does then it's not a huge deal, but if a large amount of people do then clearly we need to do something to make our perception of the role closer to yours.

I really like the suggestion of highlighting the relevant attributes for a player role on a player's profile. I think you should post it in the wish-list thread on the official forums @Dec. I can make no guarantees as to what goes in each year, but posting it there will make sure that we go through it when considering what features to put in. I really like the way it works in the PC version, it's helpful for sure.

[Guille]

I want to make sure I got this correctly.

 

The match engine calculates every move the players make at the beggining of the match, including the ones that would follow after hypothetical tactic changes, such as subs, position or role changes. Then, if a particular change is made, the final result will be no different to that calculated at the beggining because it already took into account that possible change.

 

Is that correct?

[Jack Joyce]

1 minute ago, Guillermo Alberto said:

I want to make sure I got this correctly.

 

The match engine calculates every move the players make at the beggining of the match, including the ones that would follow after hypothetical tactic changes, such as subs, position or role changes. Then, if a particular change is made, the final result will be no different to that calculated at the beggining because it already took into account that possible change.

 

Is that correct?

Not quite, the AI can't possibly know what changes you make, so the whole game is re-calculated after you change something. It would be too slow processing if we calculated for every single possible decision you could make.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Jack Joyce