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5 minutes ago, Nick11 said:

 I too don't know upto which extent these things are used in game . Is it used in game or not ?  I just analyzed it a bit with real life ...coz as game is advancing these ,in ,future, may become core part of game .

All these stuffs are just guess apart from few . SI should shed some light on it .

added 0 minutes later

Welcome to vibe . Hope cya here for long time.

I think they are used but in the build of the player and not with how speed works in game. Without input from the powers that be it's impossible to say however, 

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46 minutes ago, Brayden said:

Hello i am new here and i would like to say very nice article.

Welcome mate :D

I personally don't delve into the more technical side of things, but I feel I just get involved as this is a quality conversation. I'd agree with Nick that weight effects the overall build up point to the top speed of players, maybe this is a test we could run with strength as that has some impact on body shape and structure. 

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15 minutes ago, mcandrew003 said:

Welcome mate :D

I personally don't delve into the more technical side of things, but I feel I just get involved as this is a quality conversation. I'd agree with Nick that weight effects the overall build up point to the top speed of players, maybe this is a test we could run with strength as that has some impact on body shape and structure. 

Yeah , test is good idea but given that there are no stats about height , weight , acc.... so it isn't possible.

&

How will you test two players based upon the perspective of speed .

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For the lack of a better term an overweight player will have a lower top speed and acceleration stat, i agree with that. However his body shape relating stats will impact his build and not how the stat is used in game. He'll naturally have a lower top speed and acceleration stat due to that's usually how nature works and these stats are based off real life so in that aspect they'll reflect this. When we are talking about in game however and the stats in question i don't believe his body shape will come into it outside of the limitations he has based on his build. A player won't have a lower top speed because he's heavier, he'll have a lower set speed because that's the build he was given based on his body shape, all this is decided before it get's to the engine in my opinion. 

Once in engine the player's stats will be the players stats, his top speed might be a 10/20 and that's not going to change during the match based on his body shape. It's set in stone before kick off and reflected in his stats, especially on FMM as we have no idea if body shape is even a factor. 

I get the concept behind what's being said but to me all of that is in the stats and their limits and not in how the engine handles speed. 

15 minutes ago, mcandrew003 said:

Welcome mate :D

I personally don't delve into the more technical side of things, but I feel I just get involved as this is a quality conversation. I'd agree with Nick that weight effects the overall build up point to the top speed of players, maybe this is a test we could run with strength as that has some impact on body shape and structure. 

This is surely shown in him having a lower acceleration and top speed compared to a more nimble/lightweight player though? This imo is decided before we get to the engine.

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First of all players weight do changes during game  but couldn't confirm whether it impact speed or not.

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Here are few (tall,strong)[Ronaldo kane]  (small,light) [Neymar,Hazard Messi]

Compare their stats :

images_Screen_Shot_2016-11-02_at_12_49_15.thumb.png.5171b96d884165911ad92837408a1ff6.png

 

59610f686c422_CristianoRonaldo_ComparisonPlayerComparison.thumb.jpg.d61fd1c585638218ea3821238481d8fb.jpg

 

59610f742d987_Screenshot2016-11-2411_51_37.thumb.png.3f2da932e5d4bce8d0a1cd60376b41f4.png

 

004f5b343487_fmi5-6500-2017-01-11-13-12-41-51.thumb.jpg.f7b321c97bda9031db3aeb5366d8df5d.jpg

 

378120_2015-11-12_00006.thumb.png.e58ec9b1b0b4b456db4b7447b12e096b.png

ALEXIS-SANCHEZ-2016.png.83e03fb8f4f2fb789fe48c341f419cea.png

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44 minutes ago, Ashez said:

A player won't have a lower top speed because he's heavier, he'll have a lower set speed because that's the build he was given based on his body shape, all this is decided before it get's to the engine in my opinion.

Agree with you mate , being heavy doesn't mean player will be slow . Look at CR7 despite  of being 87kh his pace is 19/20.

44 minutes ago, Ashez said:

 

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The players will be given the stats reletive to how they play, if someone is big and fast the game should show that just like it would for any body shape. Typically when you think of fast players you do think of smaller players but then you have real athletes like Ronaldo like you said, none of it is set in stone by body type alone. All of this is shown and decide by the stats the players are given and their weight or height doesn't enter the equation in engine. The manual says it's based on acceleration, top speed and reactions so that's what it's based on, sure those values are decided with things like weight in mind but once in engine they have no role to play, especially on FMM where they aren't included. 

I just wanted to talk about just how fast the players could be, we've since ripped the pace stat apart and gone on to dig into the things hidden behind the hidden stats lol. 

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You made right point .... during simulation body shape & part aren't taken into account... what matters is pace & acceleration.

 This discussion has gone way beyond expectations.

So what's conclusion of entire discussion= Nothing.

on fmm17 we cannot say which of two players having same speed is faster (because of lack of attributes) .  Comparing two players during game is definitely not possible.

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6 minutes ago, Nick11 said:

You made right point .... during simulation body shape & part aren't taken into account... what matters is pace & acceleration.

 This discussion has gone way beyond expectations.

So what's conclusion of entire discussion= Nothing.

on fmm17 we cannot say which of two players having same speed is faster (because of lack of attributes) .  Comparing two players during game is definitely not possible.

Unless you have access to FM it does indeed appear like we have no way of knowing how fast an actual player is. A high stat for pace will give an idea of his speed but we've shown there is a lot more to it than that, especially in relation to top speed and acceleration which can't be seen.

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A really great discussion here,I don't have that much knowledge about the game to make points but have certainly learned a lot from this.

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11 minutes ago, Harish said:

A really great discussion here,I don't have that much knowledge about the game to make points but have certainly learned a lot from this.

That's the issue tbh, none of us have any knowledge on the subject as we're all just taking logical guesses lol. 

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Just now, Ashez said:

That's the issue tbh, none of us have any knowledge on the subject as we're all just taking logical guesses lol. 

Let's hope we all learn a thing or two from this discussion...:)

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23 minutes ago, Ashez said:

Unless you have access to FM it does indeed appear like we have no way of knowing how fast an actual player is. A high stat for pace will give an idea of his speed but we've shown there is a lot more to it than that, especially in relation to top speed and acceleration which can't be seen.

Well i think fmm17 which is smaller version of fm17 have few attributes which are composed of 3-4 attributes of Fm.

Like - • Creativity is combination of Vision+Composure +Flair

So i can say hidden stats do play pivotal role during the game even if it isn't show . Like a player which have great finishing (must have high Composure + first touch & power)  but in fmm it is under  single attribute  "Finishing". If any of those hidden attributes are less it will hinder his performance.

If two player have same creative  assume 16 . But their hidden attributes are like

Plyr 1(18+12+18)will be less effective

Plyr 2  ( 16+15+17) more effective.

Why ??  Becoz  you can see despite of having vision 18 & flair 18 his composure is just not good enough compared to player 2 . So he may perform well in some game even better than plyr 2 but will be less reliable, inconsistent & will concede possession.

         

21 minutes ago, Harish said:

A really great discussion here,I don't have that much knowledge about the game to make points but have certainly learned a lot from this.

Well no one is good here ..its just random thought . We don't even wether we're fully correct or not.

😁😁

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Without a doubt hidden attributes are vital to a player and it's what makes them unique. They've always been a thing on the game just not been talked about much due to them not being on show. 

In theory you can use FM as a reference point but that's not practical and we have no real idea how deep FMM actually goes and how similar the games are. 

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10 minutes ago, Ashez said:

Without a doubt hidden attributes are vital to a player and it's what makes them unique. They've always been a thing on the game just not been talked about much due to them not being on show. 

In theory you can use FM as a reference point but that's not practical and we have no real idea how deep FMM actually goes and how similar the games are. 

The game is similar, upto some extent. Stats are prepared by same algorithm (read somewhere). But like Fmm , Fm doesn't have hidden attributes (Except Loyalite, professionalism).

Using FM as reference point , fmm will be lot easier to understand & will definitely help us to assemble team having good stats . Same goes in case of regen .

Still there are lot of things that must be added to fmm . Like feeder club affiliation, more player role & tactical option .....

Fm touch is still good option over Fmm for those who want more involvement. But its supported device list is small & price is way too much.

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I want more depth more than most but adding more stats won't make the game easier, it'll just confuse new fans. FMM is a casual game and it has to have the right balance between casual and deepness. Ideally we could have the stat view we have now in simple terms but if you clicked on Pace you'd get a break down of the hidden stats. The best of both worlds as you can tell at a glance while giving more invested players a better idea/more information. 

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1 hour ago, Ashez said:

I want more depth more than most but adding more stats won't make the game easier, it'll just confuse new fans. FMM is a casual game and it has to have the right balance between casual and deepness. Ideally we could have the stat view we have now in simple terms but if you clicked on Pace you'd get a break down of the hidden stats. The best of both worlds as you can tell at a glance while giving more invested players a better idea/more information. 

This is on top of my wish list right now!! What an idea, well played bud!

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56 minutes ago, Ashez said:

I want more depth more than most but adding more stats won't make the game easier, it'll just confuse new fans. FMM is a casual game and it has to have the right balance between casual and deepness. Ideally we could have the stat view we have now in simple terms but if you clicked on Pace you'd get a break down of the hidden stats. The best of both worlds as you can tell at a glance while giving more invested players a better idea/more information. 

Yeah it's casual game , devloped for all of us who don't wish to spend days on Fm . Where Finishing 1 season takes around 10-12 days.

Im not talking about that much deepness, just slightly more options to enhance game engine.

3-D mach engine is must . Watching 2D matches for so many years is making this game boring .

Addition of new leauge (russian & Ukrainian) . polish leaugue is useless.

You mean ( folder-- subfolder) type of Attributes. That seems nice idea , atleast we can get info about sub-attributes by tapping on main attribute

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5 hours ago, Nick11 said:

3-D mach engine is must . Watching 2D matches for so many years is making this game boring .

Depends on the FMM experience players are after I suppose. I'm more than happy with a stats-based game. I don't watch highlights often and would really be disappointed if SI started putting their time and money into 3-D graphics rather than optimizing what they already have.

 

6 hours ago, Ashez said:

Ideally we could have the stat view we have now in simple terms but if you clicked on Pace you'd get a break down of the hidden stats.

Now that's an idea!

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8 hours ago, Nick11 said:

Yeah it's casual game , devloped for all of us who don't wish to spend days on Fm . Where Finishing 1 season takes around 10-12 days.

Im not talking about that much deepness, just slightly more options to enhance game engine.

3-D mach engine is must . Watching 2D matches for so many years is making this game boring .

Addition of new leauge (russian & Ukrainian) . polish leaugue is useless.

You mean ( folder-- subfolder) type of Attributes. That seems nice idea , atleast we can get info about sub-attributes by tapping on main attribute

FMM isn't FM and it shouldn't try to be, it should be it's own unique experience and a game for all fans. Personally a 3D engine is at the bottom of my wish list, it's even lower than that even lol. They can't get a 2D engine working as is, it would limit the mass market game to less devices and it would take years to get right and stall other areas of the game, tbh I'd be delighted with just a solid text based engine which is FMM roots as I only play text only on fastest com. A 3D engine would likely instantly increase the required playing time of a season too I assume and one of FMM's greatest attributes is it's snappy to get a season done IMO. Anyway getting massively off topic now haha. 

8 hours ago, Brenty92 said:

This is on top of my wish list right now!! What an idea, well played bud!

Simple yet would get the job done in an effective manor. I wouldn't get your hopes up though lol. 

2 hours ago, BatiGoal said:

Depends on the FMM experience players are after I suppose. I'm more than happy with a stats-based game. I don't watch highlights often and would really be disappointed if SI started putting their time and money into 3-D graphics rather than optimizing what they already have.

 

Now that's an idea!

Agreed 100%

We can hope :). Being able to see the hidden stats would add so much to the game, it would almost be a game changer as it would change so much instantly while not really adding anything as it's always been there kinda thing, it would also remove a lot of the guess work. Tbh there is way too much guess work in FMM, sure in many ways it makes the game simpler yet the lack of information/options especially regarding tactics and stats leaves many of us scratching our heads lol. Surely we should have the information on hand to make informed and educated decisions instead of the trail and error approach we're forced into, how much time have you wasted on a player who looked decent but for whatever reason he just didn't cut it? Maybe those hidden stats held him back? It really would be a great addition. 

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53 minutes ago, Ashez said:

Surely we should have the information on hand to make informed and educated decisions instead of the trail and error approach we're forced into, how much time have you wasted on a player who looked decent but for whatever reason he just didn't cut it? Maybe those hidden stats held him back? It really would be a great addition. 

Doing my best to not de-rail this thread, but just one last thing to add. I'm one of those guys that uses scouts embarrassingly little. Can't even remember last time I entered that page if at all, I just don't see the point. They basically do the job I love doing myself.

However, if SI did an "upgrade" on these scouts returning with reports on players' hidden attributes - now there's a good use for them I would certainly start using this feature that I've ignored for years.

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15 minutes ago, BatiGoal said:

Doing my best to not de-rail this thread, but just one last thing to add. I'm one of those guys that uses scouts embarrassingly little. Can't even remember last time I entered that page if at all, I just don't see the point. They basically do the job I love doing myself.

However, if SI did an "upgrade" on these scouts returning with reports on players' hidden attributes - now there's a good use for them I would certainly start using this feature that I've ignored for years.

Nice idea . I too never used scout that but if scouts can tell us about hidden attributes,im almost everyone will use them.

The only reason i like 3D engine is becz i helps to immerse in game . I like watching highlights . The thing is 2d match engine is predictable it really frustates to see the same thing happen again & again.  While the match engine on fm is miles better than this 2d engine atleast i can see humans rather than dots rolling around. They should retain 2d engine but addition of 3d engine will make it even better. People will have options.

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1 hour ago, BatiGoal said:

Doing my best to not de-rail this thread, but just one last thing to add. I'm one of those guys that uses scouts embarrassingly little. Can't even remember last time I entered that page if at all, I just don't see the point. They basically do the job I love doing myself.

However, if SI did an "upgrade" on these scouts returning with reports on players' hidden attributes - now there's a good use for them I would certainly start using this feature that I've ignored for years.

Agree yet disagree tbh. I agree that scouts are useless and this type of idea is one way to bring them to life, on the other hand though that's an awful lot of wasted time waiting for reports that something more instant could solve. Then you've got the fact scouts can be wrong as they should be so adding hidden stats to them could be rather useless haha. I see why they are hidden yet IMO they'd add a lot to the game, it's the same situation to why we can't edit roles IMO. The system is there we just can't use it, sure more information could confuse players but if done in the correct way it would improve the game. 

Roles - Have the base roles still but also have a way to open them up and edit them. Keeps casuals and in depth fans happy as casuals can use the base roles while more seasoned players can mess with edits. 

Stats - Have the current system for those less involved and an option to look at what makes the combined stat for those wanting more depth. 

In theory both these things are in the game currently, we just can't access them. The roles are made by the PSP system so you can assume the engine could handle any edits within those settings and we all know hidden stats are already a thing. It's not like we're asking for new features as such, to access to things currently locked away. 

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2 hours ago, BatiGoal said:

Doing my best to not de-rail this thread, but just one last thing to add. I'm one of those guys that uses scouts embarrassingly little. Can't even remember last time I entered that page if at all, I just don't see the point. They basically do the job I love doing myself.

However, if SI did an "upgrade" on these scouts returning with reports on players' hidden attributes - now there's a good use for them I would certainly start using this feature that I've ignored for years.

I don't agree totally with the fact that scouts are useless, it depends on how you play. I personally scout all players before I sign them. I play most of my saves with the attribute masking so I can't see all the stats and I have a save with Mitdjylland where I turned on attribute masking and I limited myself to signing only players that comes through the scout report 

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3 hours ago, Dar J said:

I don't agree totally with the fact that scouts are useless, it depends on how you play. I personally scout all players before I sign them. I play most of my saves with the attribute masking so I can't see all the stats and I have a save with Mitdjylland where I turned on attribute masking and I limited myself to signing only players that comes through the scout report 

I've always loved finding my own players tbh, I've often spent hours doing stat searches or going through clubs one by one and seeing if anyone catches my eye, I do that for the less filled nations all the time. I never use the scouts as I trust my own judgement and that's how I enjoy the game, I appreciate a lot of people rely on the scouts however. I do agree with Bati that if they showed hidden stats i'd be more interested in using them. 

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Ive been begging for scouts to show hidden attributes for ages. At a minimum they could report on injury proneness which I think would be realistic

 

In terms of the article, speed is all well and good but it depends on what they do with it. Shane Long might be quick but its useless when all he does in run down blind alleys. But I like the idea behind it

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7 hours ago, phila said:

Ive been begging for scouts to show hidden attributes for ages. At a minimum they could report on injury proneness which I think would be realistic

 

In terms of the article, speed is all well and good but it depends on what they do with it. Shane Long might be quick but its useless when all he does in run down blind alleys. But I like the idea behind it

They do tell you about injury proneness don't they? They used to at least, I swear they did. 

That's an excellent point, expanding that Idea I wonder what impacts how the speed his used. Movement? Decisions? Dribbling?

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I believe Pace is a mixture of Pace, Agility and Acceleration. Attributes in FMM though tend to be a bit exaggerated (which is why you see a lot more 20 shooting players than in PC), so directly comparing PC and FMM doesn't always match up directly.

It's not quite as simple as there just being 'hidden' attributes though, the grouped up attributes are used for large parts of the game (Pace instead of the three that make it up) so two 20 pace players will be almost exactly the same speed. The player's positioning/movement and teamwork are more likely to have an effect in a race between two 20 pace players e.g. one player might react faster than the other so gets a bit of a head start.

Regarding hidden attributes, scouts and coaches do tell you a lot of these e.g. set pieces, long shots, big games, pressure handling. The quality of coach and their area of expertise are taken into account in finding these though (attacking coaches will be better at rating attacking players etc).

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Thanks for taking the time to read the thread and comment @Jack Joyce it's appreciated. 

I'm always hesitant to use FM while talking about FMM, mainly because I don't have any knowledge about the full game and they're different games. While similar I like to keep them separate haha. 

Interesting to see they'd be almost the same speed though as I expected the hidden stats to have more of a role. Does the engine see the players as whatever the combined stat is or does it factor in the "hidden stats" values which create the stat? So is acceleration used in engine or is it just a way to create a total complete stat which is used? The things you mentioned will obviously have an impact though like positioning etc 

Anyway thanks again :) 

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