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Ashez

Introducing Female Managers


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FMM 2018 is upon us and we now know what new features the game will bring to the table. While looking over the list one small item really caught my eye and that's the inclusion of being a female manager. I've found myself discussing the woman's game a lot during my time here and today is no exception as I'll be talking about this new feature. 

Like I've said in previous articles I think FMM really missed the boat with female football as I think it could have been that unique experience to separate FMM from the crowd. I remember when FIFA announced it was having female teams and the buzz and free advertising that came with such a jump forward for the woman's game. FIFA is a console game and those consoles don't come cheap and it's typically a male dominated market, do you know what's not? Yep mobile phones and tablets. Not far off every female on the planet owns a mobile phone thus having the ability to play FMM if they so desired and let's face it the women's market is only growing. In recent years the Lionesses of England have grown in following and exposure with televised games on free to watch TV and more female players being interviewed and talked about in sports coverage like the BBC's. This exposure and coverage will only allow the game and it's audience to grow and as more people get invested in female football they'll look for more ways to be involved, after all aren't you all playing FMM due to your love of football? I honestly feel the free publicity, the chance to forge our own identity with a true exclusive feature and the fact the game would be accessible to almost all females is a missed opportunity but it appears steps are now being taken to draw in female players. 

With the physio and coach options added in recent years we've seen a handful of females enter the game due to their real life positions but 2018 brings a big change to the table as we'll now be able to be a female manager. This generally intrigues me as what does it mean? This feature could be nothing or it could be a game changer so let's look at some options. 

On paper this feature appears to mean we'll be able to play as a female character in the leagues present on the game. Looking at the leagues we currently have available they're rightly or wrongly all male dominated as the game includes only the male leagues. So how does a female manager break into this environment? Is this new feature nothing more than a gender icon on your profile or does it go deeper? For example do we have manager templates so we can physically see ourselves as a female? Or if it is just a gender icon on our profile will we be treated differently to our male counterparts? 

Looking at the current landscape of football the sexism and discrimination is clear for everyone to see and we can only assume this will be shown in FMM as it's a real life sim. Will female managers have a lower reputation? Will they have to do more to build it up compared to a male manager? Will female managers struggle to get jobs or even be sacked sooner? Or is this paragraph all for nothing and this feature is just changing him to her on a few text boxes? Women are underrepresented in male football and they're treated poorly and while I agree this is wrong FMM has to showcase these struggles as if it doesn't what's the point? One example that comes to mind is the on going debate about black managers not getting a chance at managerial jobs and in many ways this is shown in FMM as the more obscure your chosen nationality is the harder it can be to get jobs. This has actually improved in recent years but the impact of your chosen nationality can be seen so what about your chosen sex?

That's where my intrigue comes from as this new feature can either be a skin swap that means nothing but potentially appealing more to female players or it can offer a brand new experience and way to play the game. This however is a double edged sword as if they did showcase the struggles a female manager would have in say the Premier League it could put off new female players to the series. FMM claims to be realistic with them shoehorning things like Brexit into the game last year so where do they fall on this subject? I know I'm watching with great interest. 

Another interesting question to ask is what about the AI managers? Will the game come with a few high profile female managers we'll have to compete with regardless of if we're male or female? Will regen managers have a chance to regenerate as  a female manager later in a save? (Come on who wouldn't want to see a female Jose Mourinho!) Or is this option purely a one off just for us? 

While this is typically a sexist joke relating to female football something on the topic crossed my mind and that's pregnancy. Stepping away from the joke aspect of "oh she's out for nine months as she's pregnant" it is worth noting pregnancy is something already programmed into the game. What?! Yes you read that correctly, being pregnant is already a feature of FMM. While many of us wouldn't think of it the son unlockable is a feature and you can't have a son without being pregnant. Honestly this is very tongue in cheek but if you held off on earning the unlockable for the second half of a 30 year save questions would have to be asked! I'm sure this aspect will be ignored and brushed aside but I thought I'd beat you all to the punchline in the comments while using FMM to shut you up. 

All in all I think this feature is a positive step as it'll hopefully add a lot to the game and open the door for more bold steps in the future. Vibe wise we've seen a handful of female members over the years and as more females find themselves invested in football it's only right that FMM follows suit and allows itself to be more inclusive. The question remains of how it's implemented and if it's a great new way to play or basically a skin swap but I'm intrigued and I'd love to hear your views on the subject. 

Thanks for reading and don't forget to leave a comment. 

PS - I'd like to say a special thanks to @Stam and @Putzy for the awesome graphic! 

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Really interesting mate👍

I think it's a step forward although it seems a very small gesture and I would imagine you tick the female box but it doesn't effect the gameplay in anyway.

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I reckon it is just a text box. The female manager also looks like Angela Merkel. She seems to be managing the Dutch national team, though, so perhaps there is a neighbouring country soap opera somewhere in there :laugh:

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Great article Ash, and it is intriguing to see whether or not choosing a female manager has any affect on the game

maybe this is one for Bettygoal to test for us

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2 hours ago, Taff said:

maybe this is one for Bettygoal to test for us

Not sure I'm at my best exposing my womanly side :laugh:

Great article Ash, and can't wait to get those questions answered. If it does happen to reflect real life for women in the footballing world it adds an entirely new dimension to the game. 

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Great article mate, will be interesting to see what comes of it when game is released! 

Be interesting to see if a female AI makes it into the worlds top ten and if so how fast does she make it there?

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14 hours ago, FuddledFox said:

Really interesting mate👍

I think it's a step forward although it seems a very small gesture and I would imagine you tick the female box but it doesn't effect the gameplay in anyway.

That's what I assume which would be slightly disappointing, I want features added for a reason and not just to be PC. I've always had issues with SI's selected realism and I expect this to fall into that category. 

13 hours ago, tsadefalu said:

I'm really looking forward to how this is gonna turnout in the game. 

Same mate :) 

13 hours ago, Creed-Darkness said:

Maybe it could affect fans reactions to appointments and savings?

That's a very good point mate. There are so many reactions and things a female manager would impact and I hope some are implemented. 

13 hours ago, Prevalence said:

I reckon it is just a text box. The female manager also looks like Angela Merkel. She seems to be managing the Dutch national team, though, so perhaps there is a neighbouring country soap opera somewhere in there :laugh:

I have no idea who it is as Stam provided the image. She's some manager though

shouting-pat-.jpg

Here is the full picture. Tbh it says something that as far as I'm aware SI have no official female manager "logo" for 2018. Kind of backs up my feelings that this feature will be just a skin swap as a female logo would have been rather eye catching and supporting of the concept. 

13 hours ago, Taff said:

Great article Ash, and it is intriguing to see whether or not choosing a female manager has any affect on the game

maybe this is one for Bettygoal to test for us

It really could offer a brand new way to play if it was a unique "mode"

10 hours ago, BatiGoal said:

Not sure I'm at my best exposing my womanly side :laugh:

Great article Ash, and can't wait to get those questions answered. If it does happen to reflect real life for women in the footballing world it adds an entirely new dimension to the game. 

That it would! Like I said in the article essentially making this a "hard mode" could alienate the females they're trying to appeal to but once again there's that selected realism debate. 

4 hours ago, kylieboi88 said:

Great article mate, will be interesting to see what comes of it when game is released! 

Be interesting to see if a female AI makes it into the worlds top ten and if so how fast does she make it there?

Agreed mate, I am really interested to know if there are female AI managers and if there are with how they perform. 

Thanks for the comments guys, I wasn't sure how this would do but I'm glad it's got us all thinking. 

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Interesting article! My gut says it's just text and that is it. But hey i might be wrong. At least it is a first small step in to the right direction.

 

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I'd agree that it's likely just a text box, but if so, I don't see that as a bad thing necessarily. It's a small thing to do, but will allow female players to immerse themselves in the game a little more. It doesn't have to be reality based - I mean how likely is it that anyone on Vibe would be appointed as manager in real life? Apart from me obviously! :P

Do the current messages assume male gender at the moment (eg, "When Scratch was questioned about Armstrong's recent performances he responded that Armstrong is in wonderful form")? Or are they gender neutral? If not gender neutral, then adding this and tailoring the language in the messages is worthwhile by itself.

As for more complex / realistic scenarios, like it being harder for female managers to prove themselves, at first I thought cool! But thinking about it I think Ashez is right that it might turn female players away from the game. I mean they already face a lot of discrimination and crap in real life, why would they play a game that puts them through all that again...

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4 hours ago, PriZe said:

Interesting article! My gut says it's just text and that is it. But hey i might be wrong. At least it is a first small step in to the right direction.

 

I wonder what the general reaction would be if one year the big new feature was some female leagues? I'll be honest and say that honestly wouldn't appeal to me too much but at the same time I think it would be a big deal. 

3 hours ago, scratch99 said:

I'd agree that it's likely just a text box, but if so, I don't see that as a bad thing necessarily. It's a small thing to do, but will allow female players to immerse themselves in the game a little more. It doesn't have to be reality based - I mean how likely is it that anyone on Vibe would be appointed as manager in real life? Apart from me obviously! :P

Do the current messages assume male gender at the moment (eg, "When Scratch was questioned about Armstrong's recent performances he responded that Armstrong is in wonderful form")? Or are they gender neutral? If not gender neutral, then adding this and tailoring the language in the messages is worthwhile by itself.

As for more complex / realistic scenarios, like it being harder for female managers to prove themselves, at first I thought cool! But thinking about it I think Ashez is right that it might turn female players away from the game. I mean they already face a lot of discrimination and crap in real life, why would they play a game that puts them through all that again...

I agree I just find the picking and choosing frustrating lol. 

I'm not sure if they're now you've said it, if they weren't this feature wouldn't be adding much haha. 

Yeah that's fair and that's why I expect it to be more of a skin swap even if that would be slightly disappointing, understandable but disappointing. 

 

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This is most likely a palette swap for the manager, and might not even feature much in the game besides a change in the use of pronouns, but I feel like it's a clear statement of intent by FMM.

FM took a major step forward in showing that they understand the current social climate and took a clear stance on the issue by announcing that they would be featuring gay players in their game, and I feel like FMM, befitting it's status as FM's little brother, has likewise taken a smaller step forward in acknowledging gender equality in FMM. The timing of the two features can't be a coincidence.

It might not be the feature we were all hoping for but it's definitely a change for the better, at the very least, it attracts a different cross-section of the diverse market in women.

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@Ashez i think it would get the same reception as on fifa where the majority where like ok fine... not going to play it.

Would be interesting to see statwise how the ladies turn out. Lieke Martens won the world football player of the year recently, so how does she statswise look like compared to CR7

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33 minutes ago, locomofo said:

This is most likely a palette swap for the manager, and might not even feature much in the game besides a change in the use of pronouns, but I feel like it's a clear statement of intent by FMM.

FM took a major step forward in showing that they understand the current social climate and took a clear stance on the issue by announcing that they would be featuring gay players in their game, and I feel like FMM, befitting it's status as FM's little brother, has likewise taken a smaller step forward in acknowledging gender equality in FMM. The timing of the two features can't be a coincidence.

It might not be the feature we were all hoping for but it's definitely a change for the better, at the very least, it attracts a different cross-section of the diverse market in women.

I stopped myself mentioning the addition of gay regens in FM as I think it's wrong but as it's not in FMM I didn't see the need to mention it. Right let me make this clear I have no issue with gay people, gay footballers or anything like that and this opinion doesn't come from hate (my brothers gay and plays football as it goes lol). My problem is the way it's been highlighted and the fact it's clearly not needed, as it stands on FMM we have no idea what our players sexual preferences are and tbh I couldn't care less as that's how it should be. I get the argument that SI are trying to make being gay in football more normalised but by bringing attention to something we wouldn't even think about isn't the way to do it, especially as all it does is offer you more money on the back of the announcement. This feature just screams of the press will eat it up and that they're being PC. 

Come on honestly who's ever signed or called up a regen and thought hmm I wonder if he likes boys or girls? I know that thought has never crossed my mind and I dunno I just don't feel comfortable with something this unneeded being highlighted in this manor. The message they're trying to get across is it's fine to be gay within football which is a good and needed message but is forcing a feature in that has no place and having one in game news story about it the way to do it? Is this even SI's battle? I dunno I just think this inclusion is more PC gone mad as it didn't need highlighting. 

How many gay footballers can you name? Granted that is the issue this is trying to combat but how many footballers do you know that are in prison? Been done for drink driving?  Attempted Fraud? I know which list is longer for me yet it's the one they'd never add into the game. Again selected realism as they'd never give us a criminal regen which is pretty common if you count drink driving yet they're doing this as it's seen as a positive step. 

Hopefully it does normalise it as this is apart of football stuck in the dark ages but I just don't see the need for it in FM. If a player comes out as gay in real life the issue is the media and the fans, my personal opinion is so what just move on as it's not an issue, I seriously couldn't care. The papers would have a field day with such news and IMO they'd be the issue which FM doesn't combat as all this feature is is a news post. 

27 minutes ago, PriZe said:

@Ashez i think it would get the same reception as on fifa where the majority where like ok fine... not going to play it.

Would be interesting to see statwise how the ladies turn out. Lieke Martens won the world football player of the year recently, so how does she statswise look like compared to CR7

True

That's a very interesting thought actually 

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How many gay footballers can you name? Granted that is the issue this is trying to combat but how many footballers do you know that are in prison? Been done for drink driving?  Attempted Fraud? I know which list is longer for me yet it's the one they'd never add into the game. Again selected realism as they'd never give us a criminal regen which is pretty common if you count drink driving yet they're doing this as it's seen as a positive step. 


Criminal offenses and such would have legal repercussions to include in the game potentially and so this sort of thing isn't done blatantly and instead we tend to group any such oddities under 'personal problems'.

With regards to gay footballers there are many - but few who are 'out' presently because of how society is, while I wasn't involved in the decision to include this in FM - I think including it will hopefully help normalize this side of things  and encourage people to be 'themselves' which everyone should be comfortable to do.

This is probably more personal to me than some straight men because quite a few people in my immediately family are gay and I fully understand if you're not commonly in contact with gay people why you might shrug your shoulders and go 'meh' in  the same way men probably aren't wholly excited by the fact you can now elect to be a female manager in the  game ...

(Generally with these things is some features/additions will appeal to certain demographics and not to others... same thing when we include additional leagues etc.)

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I appreciate the attempt but my view is that sexual preferences mean nothing on the pitch so imo they shouldn't be in FM/M. Being gay shouldn't be an issue and I know that's the message this is attempting to get over but in doing so it's shown it as more of an issue. The game highlights it and makes it an issue which we otherwise wouldn't have thought about. 

This isn't a massive deal to me at all I just think while the hearts in the right place the implementation wasn't needed, especially as it essentially calls the player out for it and "makes it news". Do you get messages about straight players preferences or off the pitch relationships?

In a game about stats and figures I just don't think it matters who these characters are sleeping with, I want football not the Sims. 

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I’m with Ash, I’m all for gay rights (also have a gay brother) and players being able to come out but the issue has no real place in the game 

your not going to get a “Two of the team have fallen out because one slept with the others wife” message so why put the player being Gay in there.  Their sexual preference has no impact on the game and it’s not something most if not all ever think about

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To clarify in FM the first player who does come out actually is likely to become somewhat of an icon and as such there are financial ramification to the club in terms of shirt sales and such.

(to clarify in case anyone is confused this feature isn't actually in FMM at this point - but I think its cool that its in FM)

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Wow, I seemed to have opened a can of worms on this issue. @Ashez it seems like you're upset over the fact that FM decided to make gay players a bigger issue than what you perceive it to be. The fact is that gay players are a minor feature of FM18, and the fanfare around the announcement was mainly from people who were gay themselves or from straight players of the game with gay friends themselves. Also, the gay feature is not entirely cosmetic.

Like Marc said, the game actually does make the gay issue more than a few word swaps in a players profile, unlike what I'm expecting for the female manager in FMM(which is even less likely to have an impact on the game, do you expect different in-game events to occur as a result of your gender?) Gay players will attract a bigger fan base, and shirt sales will rise for that player, because he attracts a unique and untouched fan base in the footballing world.

15 hours ago, Ashez said:

My problem is the way it's been highlighted and the fact it's clearly not needed, as it stands on FMM we have no idea what our players sexual preferences are and tbh I couldn't care less as that's how it should be. I get the argument that SI are trying to make being gay in football more normalised but by bringing attention to something we wouldn't even think about isn't the way to do it, especially as all it does is offer you more money on the back of the announcement. 

I honestly have no idea why this would be a bad thing. First off, SI is a company that is trying to market and sell a product, namely, FM18. The announcement of such a feature will undoubtedly generate a lot of comments and opinions due to its diversifying and controversial nature. This is Marketing 101, get people talking about your product, there is no such thing as bad publicity, and FM seems to have got lots of people talking about it (I know I rattled this hornets nest, but heck, what are we doing here right now?). 

Quote

This feature just screams of the press will eat it up and that they're being PC. 

Again, this is never a bad thing. When we have current day companies like United Airlines and Nestlé with such massive PR scandals, is it not acceptable for a company to clearly state its stance on the issue by normalising the issue and drawing positive feedback?

 

Now, before we get too off topic, let's get back to the general topic of women in FMM.

Like I said before, the inclusion of women in FMM is potentially such a minor feature that if anything, the ramifications of gay players in FM might overshadow the women if anything. Gay players do have an impact on FM, that's been confirmed (link above). 

16 hours ago, Ashez said:

Hopefully it does normalise it as this is apart of football stuck in the dark ages but I just don't see the need for it in FM. If a player comes out as gay manager is announced to be a female in real life the issue is the media and the fans, my personal opinion is so what just move on as it's not an issue, I seriously couldn't care. The papers would have a field day with such news and IMO they'd be the issue which FM doesn't combat as all this feature is is a news post. 

Your points on how the inclusion of gay players' impact and their private relationships don't affect the game are overbearingly applicable to the "female manager" feature.

After having read through what you've had to say about women in FMM and homosexuals in FM, and seeing how similar both points are, I can clearly see a slight negative disposition towards the gay players. Now hear me out, I know you recognise many gays in your current relationships with friends and family, and I will personally vouch for your attitude and generosity in helping members of this community, but you might need to reevaluate what you're saying about these two issues.

What you're saying here about how the inclusion of homosexuals in FM is a negligible inclusion can be applied to women in FMM, and yet you criticise the former and applaud the addition of the latter:

Quote

Looking at the current landscape of football the sexism and discrimination is clear for everyone to see and we can only assume this will be shown in FMM as it's a real life sim.

and also here:

Quote

Women are underrepresented in male football and they're treated poorly and while I agree this is wrong FMM has to showcase these struggles as if it doesn't what's the point?

 

Are these statements about women also not true for gays in football? How many women hold a head coach job in the top professional leagues of football around the world? How many current gay players do you recognise in the top professional leagues of football? The answer to both is far too little. Despite our repeated claims of an 'enlightened' culture there are still sadly too many discriminations in football, be it gender, sexuality, or (less frequently now) race.

 

I guess what I really want to say is, what SI has done is never a bad thing, whether or not you personally disagree with it, you have to accept the fact that both the features are a positive step forward. Neither of the features are inconsequential or 'not needed'. I might be wrong about the inclusion of females in FMM, and they might play a big role in the game, but in either case it shows that SI cares enough about both issues to include them in their games (with Marc going as far as to personally speak out) with varying success.

 

I'm as critical as any other man on the internet of 'white knights' or 'SJWs', but sometimes you have to identify a positive action as such, and not a desperate attempt to be politically correct. I hope that clarifies where I'm coming from, Ashez, I respect you a lot but I've just been exasperated reading what you've had to say after my initial post, I wanted to be clear on this issue, so this turned out to be a lot longer than I expected, but I hope you take the time to read it through, and give it a thought, cheers.

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2 hours ago, locomofo said:

Wow, I seemed to have opened a can of worms on this issue. @Ashez it seems like you're upset over the fact that FM decided to make gay players a bigger issue than what you perceive it to be. The fact is that gay players are a minor feature of FM18, and the fanfare around the announcement was mainly from people who were gay themselves or from straight players of the game with gay friends themselves. Also, the gay feature is not entirely cosmetic.

Like Marc said, the game actually does make the gay issue more than a few word swaps in a players profile, unlike what I'm expecting for the female manager in FMM(which is even less likely to have an impact on the game, do you expect different in-game events to occur as a result of your gender?) Gay players will attract a bigger fan base, and shirt sales will rise for that player, because he attracts a unique and untouched fan base in the footballing world.

There is a reason I wanted to avoid this subject :P. In real life I see all the points being said but I'm not on about real life as I'm talking about in game. A game of stats, numbers and calculations and in that world the sexual preference of these characters is an non issue to me personally. 

I honestly have no idea why this would be a bad thing. First off, SI is a company that is trying to market and sell a product, namely, FM18. The announcement of such a feature will undoubtedly generate a lot of comments and opinions due to its diversifying and controversial nature. This is Marketing 101, get people talking about your product, there is no such thing as bad publicity, and FM seems to have got lots of people talking about it (I know I rattled this hornets nest, but heck, what are we doing here right now?). 

Again, this is never a bad thing. When we have current day companies like United Airlines and Nestlé with such massive PR scandals, is it not acceptable for a company to clearly state its stance on the issue by normalising the issue and drawing positive feedback?

There is nothing wrong with publicly and this is something that would catch the eye as it has. Personally I see it as a shoehorned in feature that while the motivations were in the right place it wasn't needed in game. I've never seen anyone request gay players to be added, i wouldn't be surprised if they have been requested I'll admit but I just don't think a players sexual preference matters.

Now, before we get too off topic, let's get back to the general topic of women in FMM.

Like I said before, the inclusion of women in FMM is potentially such a minor feature that if anything, the ramifications of gay players in FM might overshadow the women if anything. Gay players do have an impact on FM, that's been confirmed (link above). 

Your points on how the inclusion of gay players' impact and their private relationships don't affect the game are overbearingly applicable to the "female manager" feature.

After having read through what you've had to say about women in FMM and homosexuals in FM, and seeing how similar both points are, I can clearly see a slight negative disposition towards the gay players. Now hear me out, I know you recognise many gays in your current relationships with friends and family, and I will personally vouch for your attitude and generosity in helping members of this community, but you might need to reevaluate what you're saying about these two issues.

What you're saying here about how the inclusion of homosexuals in FM is a negligible inclusion can be applied to women in FMM, and yet you criticise the former and applaud the addition of the latter:

If a female was implemented with the struggles she'd have in real life was my point here, not her sexual preferences. It's not like I talked about "with player relations" because she's female or anything. Adding a sexual preference to a regen in short is harmless and if it does normalise it I'm all for it I just think it was an unneeded inclusion in this type of game. I'm all for women's football as it's a completely different experience to men's and if it was implemented correctly it could be it's own mode kind of thing, on a gameplay level it could change rather a lot while the sexual preference of a regen changes nothing. I'm not talking about real life views at all and purely talking about how it impacts the game. We've both basically agreed both additions are potentially meaningless (in game not in message) or small enhancements which again is my issue as it could have been expanded. For obvious reasons they couldn't expand much on a gay regen as if they showed a gay players real life struggles it wouldn't be normalising it it would be accepting the awful state of things. When the news broke I saw loads of vile comments about how the team should kick him out the dressing room, how the fans would turn on him and the typical horrible responses and if stuff like this impacted relationships or team moral that would be a bad thing. They've decided to implement it and gave it a positive impact which I can and do support, again my issue is I just don't feel the need to know "the dot on my screens" sexual preference. 

and also here:

Are these statements about women also not true for gays in football? How many women hold a head coach job in the top professional leagues of football around the world? How many current gay players do you recognise in the top professional leagues of football? The answer to both is far too little. Despite our repeated claims of an 'enlightened' culture there are still sadly too many discriminations in football, be it gender, sexuality, or (less frequently now) race.

I 100% agree, the real life footballing world is in the dark ages. Like I said though I'm coming from a game play perspective and from that perspective a female manager could add more. In truth SI are waving the flag for change with the inclusion of gay players, female managers and having a black manager/logo for 2018 which I think is for the first time and they are all positive in real life steps. Maybe the footballing world needs a game to lead the way and to show change is more than welcomed which I have no problem with, again my point is purely I don't see who my characters sleeps with as an issue that needed highlighting. Maybe I am more prepared for the game to show the struggles for females more than I am for a gay regen but that's because I see the struggles a female manager would have while a gay regens issues would mostly be things off of the pitch or that they obviously couldn't highlight as it would undo the positive step. (media, fans, team mate reactions etc). Granted I asked if they would show such negative steps regarding female managers but I wasn't suggesting the media being vile or stuff just that rightly or wrongly she would likely be under valued by the board so I wondered how she'd compare to a male manager. When it comes to a gay or straight player comparison in game or in real life I wouldn't make one as to me it makes no difference, there must be 100's of unknown gay players and on the pitch it makes no difference what so ever and that's why I don't think it was needed in FM. IMO FM/M should be about the football on the pitch, in truth I'm not a fan of most the stuff the game does off it as I can't be doing with the media and all that stuff as all I want to play is the football. From that view point a female manager could offer something different whereas my players sexual preference won't etc. I completely get and back the normalising aspect of both these inclusions and I hope it works, I hope the FM community and the footballing community at large become more welcoming, if one person has the courage to come out due to this inclusion it has to be a positive step and worth it, just as much as if being a female manager gives a girl the courage to follow her dream. I back that argument 100% from a real life standpoint, but from a game play standpoint I'm not convinced it was needed. If a real life player came out and was in the game, would we be fine with the game calling this player out for it or should we just ignore it and move on? On a moral level I hate how the media would treat such an event and I we all know one reason players don't come out is due to the media and how they'd react to the news, it would be everywhere and IMO stuff like that shouldn't even be news. Yes that's a culturally problem that you can argue this is trying to fight but I'm not sure that's SI's fight to make, especially as in their game it has next to no impact. Give me a gay character in a story driven game or something and I'm all for it, just in a game of stats and numbers I don't see the point on a gameplay level. 

I guess what I really want to say is, what SI has done is never a bad thing, whether or not you personally disagree with it, you have to accept the fact that both the features are a positive step forward. Neither of the features are inconsequential or 'not needed'. I might be wrong about the inclusion of females in FMM, and they might play a big role in the game, but in either case it shows that SI cares enough about both issues to include them in their games (with Marc going as far as to personally speak out) with varying success.

I'm as critical as any other man on the internet of 'white knights' or 'SJWs', but sometimes you have to identify a positive action as such, and not a desperate attempt to be politically correct. I hope that clarifies where I'm coming from, Ashez, I respect you a lot but I've just been exasperated reading what you've had to say after my initial post, I wanted to be clear on this issue, so this turned out to be a lot longer than I expected, but I hope you take the time to read it through, and give it a thought, cheers.

I've bolded my responses within the quote. 

I posted what I did expecting a response and I do see both sides to this debate. I get why it was added and what it's trying to achieve I just think highlighting it and making the player stand out beats the point somewhat. You can't normalise it by calling it out kind of thing but this is the only way it could have been added into this type of game as how else could you? Which is arguably why I don't think it's inclusion was needed on a gameplay level. Gameplay wise it's added nothing and all it's done is highlight a players sexual preference which has nothing to do with the game, on a moral level it's inclusion is fine but on a gameplay one I don't see the need. 

While I appreciate the discussion I think it's best we move on though. It's off topic from the OP, discussing a completely different game and it's such a hot topic I don't want things to be derailed too much haha. 

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Thanks for replying. I see what you mean purely on a gameplay level. And honestly, with a cooler head, I can say that this isn't something worth getting that worked up over.

The way you dismissed the features despite the positive light the announcement was framed in was a little disappointing. But if you look at it as a FMM player I can see where you're coming from. I just feel that the focus shouldn't be on its results in-game but more on its potential influence outside of the game. The feature wasn't added with that intent, unlike some previous barebones content that was directly related to football (coaches in FMM16).

 

Anyway, with all that said, I feel like your response is justified, to each his own. Let's hope the female manager feature in FMM is worthy of the little debate we just had, looking forward to it!

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32 minutes ago, locomofo said:

Thanks for replying. I see what you mean purely on a gameplay level. And honestly, with a cooler head, I can say that this isn't something worth getting that worked up over.

The way you dismissed the features despite the positive light the announcement was framed in was a little disappointing. But if you look at it as a FMM player I can see where you're coming from. I just feel that the focus shouldn't be on its results in-game but more on its potential influence outside of the game. The feature wasn't added with that intent, unlike some previous barebones content that was directly related to football (coaches in FMM16).

 

Anyway, with all that said, I feel like your response is justified, to each his own. Let's hope the female manager feature in FMM is worthy of the little debate we just had, looking forward to it!

I suppose that's fair, I've been writing about FMM for that long I can seperate real life and the game with ease which isn't always a positive attribute. I often use real life topics in my work but I turn them into FMM topics and use the game to talk about them, due to that I can go all in on the in game view if that makes sense. 

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Personally I'd wish to have female national teams not the leagues added so there will already be a link plus some of the players retire could then see them as staff not just made up regens.. I would love to see the US Women's team and see how they would rate vs men's teams. A.Morgan , C.lloyd, M.Rampione etc I think you could lure in more players with national teams as the women's leagues are not as established or popular as the national teams .. I think female gamers would love to actually manage their favorite female players too not just manage all men's teams so I think you need to include female players if you want female managers ...

As for sexual preference that seems to be something I don't believe should be a feature as we have no way of identifying/expressing a sexual identity now and there's no real point as I don't see straight/homosexual players/staff as any different . Just seems like unnecessary addition that could be replaced by other real life features that I would care about like scandals, cheating, doping, partying arrests, match fixing etc.. Only open gay player in MLS is LA Galaxy R.Rogers who I think just retired . It was brace for him to come out n all but no big drama since he did so didn't change anything to do with games / tactics which FMM is about ... 

 

BTW the picture is of Pat Summit who was a legendary women's basketball coach at University of Tennessee..🏀⚽️

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2 hours ago, BatiGoal said:

Wondering if any of the Vibers' missuses have started playing the game yet :)

Have you convinced Bettygoal to start a save?

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