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Manjus

Help Building a Tactic for a Lone Striker

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28 minutes ago, Ashc123 said:

That’s a lot of goals to be playing defensive in my opinion. What’s your team looking like? Are they all world class or is it a fairly new career? 

It’s more than possible to score more goals on defensive, with the right approach of course. 

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1 hour ago, Nucleus said:

It’s more than possible to score more goals on defensive, with the right approach of course. 

Oh yeah, I’m not saying it’s impossible I just think 30 goals in 8 games whilst playing a defensive style is pretty good. I was just wondering if it was more to do with the quality of players or the tactic itself.

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2 minutes ago, Ashc123 said:

Oh yeah, I’m not saying it’s impossible I just think 30 goals in 8 games whilst playing a defensive style is pretty good. I was just wondering if it was more to do with the quality of players or the tactic itself.

I’d hazard a guess it’s a mixture of both.

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16 hours ago, Ashc123 said:

That’s a lot of goals to be playing defensive in my opinion. What’s your team looking like? Are they all world class or is it a fairly new career? 

The team is pretty strong. The original wave of players are at their peak and there's lots of green, but not a lot of 20s. Then I've got regens coming through who aren't at that level yet, but will go past the original wave. They get a fair bit of playing time, which weakens the team a little. But we are super-powered in Scotland and good enough to have won 2 out of 4 Champions League (and made it to the final in the other 2). 

So yeah, being better than the opposition is likely a big part of it. I like to think that Defensive means that they don't push forward as much, but when they have the ball, they're still going to go forward. And when they do, then they are good enough to score goals. And because they aren't pushing forward as much as other mentalities, then the striker is more of the focal point (as the others aren't up there in the box as quickly). 

But as I said way up yonder, my tactic works great against some formations, but is weaker against 442 and 4141 (though if your players are good enough it can work sometimes). There are some games where it's not working and I switch to Attacking. So it's not perfect by any means, but it works well enough for me. 🙂

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15 hours ago, Nucleus said:

I’d hazard a guess it’s a mixture of both.

Yeah this!

58 minutes ago, Kanegan said:

Maybe a weaker league can also contribute to that amount of goals. 

And this!

There was a 7-0 at home to St Mirren in there too, which helps. We are just a little bit better than them. 😄

But the point is, in that game 6 of the 7 goals went to the striker (only 3 to my 1KC striker unfortunately, the other 3 to Zlatan 2.0 off the bench). The other goal was from a CM, but that was from a rebound out of the box, so the striker already had a chance at that. 

If I'd played a more attacking tactic, I might have won 9-0, but there would have been goals to APs and CMs etc. So that's why I use this tactic most of the time. My main focus here is goals for the striker, not the largest score possible. Well actually my main focus here is to equal Nucleus' score, but don't tell him that...

Edited by Scratch

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6 minutes ago, Scratch said:

Well actually my main focus here is to equal Nucleus' score, but don't tell him that...

Somebody’s already beaten you to it 😂

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4 minutes ago, Nucleus said:

Somebody’s already beaten you to it 😂

Yeah, I saw that, but I'm not overly ambitious, just was want to equal your score on the last day... 😂

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Interesting points raised there. 

2 minutes ago, Scratch said:

If I'd played a more attacking tactic, I might have won 9-0, but there would have been goals to APs and CMs etc. So that's why I use this tactic most of the time. 

Makes sense. I must admit I very rarely play defensive mentality but I can see why this tactic would generate fewer goalscorers - and NOT fewer goals per se. Again, not from experience because I usually play control or attacking, but from a sensical pov I'd expect def. mentality to have my players prioritize defensive duties over attacking ones. That would mean defenders stay closer to their own box + rarely venturing forward, midfielders thinking defense first, then attack, likely also starting deeper and opting for (safer) passes over supporting attack with shots on goal. Same for forwards, in this case one would need pacey creative ones to rely on goals to due the distance to the goal etc. 

Really makes sense in the end to go with this kind of tactic for goalscoring challenges 👍 

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Just now, Scratch said:

Yeah, I saw that, but I'm not overly ambitious, just was want to equal your score on the last day... 😂

I knew it!! Typical Newcastle fan, obsessed with his rival 😛

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3 minutes ago, BatiGoal said:

Interesting points raised there. 

Makes sense. I must admit I very rarely play defensive mentality but I can see why this tactic would generate fewer goalscorers - and NOT fewer goals per se. Again, not from experience because I usually play control or attacking, but from a sensical pov I'd expect def. mentality to have my players prioritize defensive duties over attacking ones. That would mean defenders stay closer to their own box + rarely venturing forward, midfielders thinking defense first, then attack, likely also starting deeper and opting for (safer) passes over supporting attack with shots on goal. Same for forwards, in this case one would need pacey creative ones to rely on goals to due the distance to the goal etc. 

Really makes sense in the end to go with this kind of tactic for goalscoring challenges 👍 

If I’m not mistaken, counter attacks are automatically generated in game. When this happens the team mentality and instructions automatically switch to the extreme end of the scale (overload, wide, fast tempo etc.) So it makes sense that a defensive mentality would trigger more of these auto counters resulting in sometimes more goals, especially for a pacy Forward.

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10 minutes ago, Nucleus said:

If I’m not mistaken, counter attacks are automatically generated in game. When this happens the team mentality and instructions automatically switch to the extreme end of the scale (overload, wide, fast tempo etc.) So it makes sense that a defensive mentality would trigger more of these auto counters resulting in sometimes more goals, especially for a pacy Forward.

I've got 5 formations I use very regularly. I'm going to test these in FMM20 with def. mentality and see what difference it makes in terms of #goals and goalscorers. Maybe a 5k? 😂 

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1 minute ago, BatiGoal said:

I've got 5 formations I use very regularly. I'm going to test these in FMM20 with def. mentality and see what difference it makes in terms of #goals and goalscorers. Maybe a 5k? 😂 

I’ve actually been testing in defensive mentality ever since I read this thread the other day. I’m so out of practice with this game thought that the results are inconclusive 😂

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11 minutes ago, BatiGoal said:

Interesting points raised there. 

Makes sense. I must admit I very rarely play defensive mentality but I can see why this tactic would generate fewer goalscorers - and NOT fewer goals per se. Again, not from experience because I usually play control or attacking, but from a sensical pov I'd expect def. mentality to have my players prioritize defensive duties over attacking ones. That would mean defenders stay closer to their own box + rarely venturing forward, midfielders thinking defense first, then attack, likely also starting deeper and opting for (safer) passes over supporting attack with shots on goal. Same for forwards, in this case one would need pacey creative ones to rely on goals to due the distance to the goal etc. 

Really makes sense in the end to go with this kind of tactic for goalscoring challenges 👍 

See, that's the sort of thinking I wish I was capable of! I just try things and use the ones that work! 😄

I do have thoughts on why it works, but that's from deconstructing it after it works, not from thinking things through like that in advance.

Most of what you say there is spot on. I used WBs behind Ws and they don't push on in the majority of cases. I'm not sure if it's the Defensive mentality or the fact the space is occupied. Or little column A, little column B... But either way, they are noticably further back than you'd expect. Same goes with the CMs and the AP (in CM line). The AP goes forward, but not as much as you'd expect, so when he gets the ball, he's more likely to pass than in some other scenarios. 

The one thing that is different for my tactic from what you wrote is that you need the Aerial 20 striker over a pacy creative one (though sure, that helps too). The vast majority of opportunities come from the wings. 13 of the striker's 21 goals came from the wings (and 4 were corners and 1 was penalty), so that's 81% of goals from open play... And I'm not playing down the flanks. Actually I'm even playing Narrow. 

What seems to happen is that the majority of the play involves the WBs kicking things off, as they link the defensive line to the midfield (no BPDs, DLPs or BBMs). They then either pass the ball forward to the W or they pass inside to the CM who then passes back out to the winger. I see this happen a lot:

fmm1.gif  

Anyway, it is working pretty well for me in FMM19. 

 

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25 minutes ago, Nucleus said:

If I’m not mistaken, counter attacks are automatically generated in game. When this happens the team mentality and instructions automatically switch to the extreme end of the scale (overload, wide, fast tempo etc.) So it makes sense that a defensive mentality would trigger more of these auto counters resulting in sometimes more goals, especially for a pacy Forward.

Really, didn't know that about the counter attacks, but makes sense to me. I could never make that work for me at all. Although I just said to BG, I'm not scoring from counter attacks, it's all from the wings... 🙂

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13 minutes ago, BatiGoal said:

I've got 5 formations I use very regularly. I'm going to test these in FMM20 with def. mentality and see what difference it makes in terms of #goals and goalscorers. Maybe a 5k? 😂 

and

10 minutes ago, Nucleus said:

I’ve actually been testing in defensive mentality ever since I read this thread the other day. I’m so out of practice with this game thought that the results are inconclusive 😂

It really might be just the way I'm using it and the particular formation I'm using (I sort of feel like it's a few things coming together to push play down the flanks), but would be really interested to see if it works for anyone else.. 

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4 minutes ago, Scratch said:

And I'm not playing down the flanks. Actually I'm even playing Narrow

 What seems to happen is that the majority of the play involves the WBs kicking things off, as they link the defensive line to the midfield (no BPDs, DLPs or BBMs). They then either pass the ball forward to the W or they pass inside to the CM who then passes back out to the winger. I see this happen a lot:

This is a technique I use myself actually, Wingbacks and wingers but with a narrow width. The way I see it is that being narrow doesn’t necessarily affect your team width but naturally your focus of play too. So playing narrow but with wingers and Wingbacks could leave them in plenty of space if play is directed through the centre.

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Wait... So... I'm not crazy?  🤣

Yeah, makes sense. I used to use through the middle last year. I tried so hard to use Down Both Flanks this year (due to the Aerial super power), but forcing it just does not work, so I just left it as Mixed, which is what I'm using now.

I originally tried Narrow because my squad wasn't that good on Day 1 and I was trying to keep things tight. My plan was to go wider when I was stronger, but I found that Narrow actually seemed to lead to more crosses so I kept it - though that was just based on a feeling quite a while ago now and probably bears further testing to see if it's true or not!

But yeah, your theory of it giving them more space makes total sense to me. I do see them go wide and dribble around a couple of players, then get the cross in. Maybe that wouldn't happen so much if they were wider as they wouldn't have the space to go around the defenders? Arzani just maxed out and he has 20 Pace, 20 Dribbling and 20 Crossing. Give him an opening on the outside and he's around you and the ball is on the striker's head. Seen him do this often. 

That said, in the GIF above, he is right on the touchline, so not sure what's that about. I guess that's just in response to the movement of play in that instance. Can't see what else he would do in that situation..

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I’ve mainly used attacking mentality all year but will sometimes go balance for tricky away games usually in the latter stages of the champions league depending on how good I feel we are as a team. Usually I only need to do this in the early stages of the save as once we go deep into the save I find it just gets so much easier.

Also I tried to stop any other players in the team maxing out their aerial, I would fail of course but my idea was that it would increase the near post corner goals for my main guy if there was hardly anybody else in the side with top aerial. I’ve had other similar ideas as well and most of it just goes to prove I’ve probably gone too far and deep and need to re-evaluate my life for fmm20 😂

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6 minutes ago, Scratch said:

Yeah, makes sense. I used to use through the middle last year. I tried so hard to use Down Both Flanks this year (due to the Aerial super power), but forcing it just does not work, so I just left it as Mixed, which is what I'm using now.

 

I always tend to leave passing focus on mixed. Having it set to a certain area could potentially make play predictable. 

Being narrow is predominantly the defensive shape of the team imo. During an attack a winger or a wingback is naturally programmed to hug the flanks no matter what you tell them - Player Roles > Team Instructions (imo)

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8 minutes ago, Ian said:

I’ve mainly used attacking mentality all year but will sometimes go balance for tricky away games usually in the latter stages of the champions league depending on how good I feel we are as a team. Usually I only need to do this in the early stages of the save as once we go deep into the save I find it just gets so much easier.

I'm the opposite, LOL!! I start defensive, but will go attacking when that's not working, but as I get deeper into a save I need to do that less... 😄

9 minutes ago, Ian said:

Also I tried to stop any other players in the team maxing out their aerial, I would fail of course but my idea was that it would increase the near post corner goals for my main guy if there was hardly anybody else in the side with top aerial. I’ve had other similar ideas as well and most of it just goes to prove I’ve probably gone too far and deep and need to re-evaluate my life for fmm20 😂

I was doing this as well. I'd never ever train CBs in Aerial. And it seemed to work. I'm less strict on it in this save because I had no striker for the first 3 seasons (waiting for the Cahill regen), but I needed Arzani to get assists, so I was happy for everyone to have Aerial 20. 😄 Now that I have a striker I don't emphasize it but I'm not selling CBs because their Aerial is too high...

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4 minutes ago, Nucleus said:

I always tend to leave passing focus on mixed. Having it set to a certain area could potentially make play predictable. 

Being narrow is predominantly the defensive shape of the team imo. During an attack a winger or a wingback is naturally programmed to hug the flanks no matter what you tell them - Player Roles > Team Instructions (imo)

Good point about the predictability. Mixed does seem to work pretty well. And I think you're probably right about the narrow part and wingers programmed to hug the flanks. I've never really thought about this stuff before, really loving this discussion.

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I also always use attacking and even overload sometimes and always go for overlapping which in my mind atleast gets better returns from the wings though I am not sure if that is the case. 

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7 hours ago, Ian said:

I’ve had other similar ideas as well and most of it just goes to prove I’ve probably gone too far and deep and need to re-evaluate my life for fmm20 😂

That kinda explains my sudden poof from Vibe every few months 😂 

7 hours ago, Scratch said:

I originally tried Narrow because my squad wasn't that good on Day 1 and I was trying to keep things tight. My plan was to go wider when I was stronger, but I found that Narrow actually seemed to lead to more crosses so I kept it

That space theory you and Nuke mention makes total sense. Maybe I should start watching those match highlights again in FMM20 because I know they can be useful at times. I use wide or narrow mainly depending on how my CMs are positioned. With a packed CM setup - flat 3, triangle, diamond I opt for wide as to create a little more space, don't want it to be too packed. Just two then balanced or narrow to close gaps in case of being overrun. 

If you're playing with Wingers or WBs it's definitely something worth considering. I'd think really pacey ones with great movement need space so narrow? Top dribblers with good technique wide? Have them positioned there already so they can start doing their thing right away, kinda saves energy as well as the risk of losing possession to get in that position? Tbh haven't thought about this enough. 

That's what I love about this game. Endless possibilities. 

7 hours ago, Nucleus said:

I always tend to leave passing focus on mixed. Having it set to a certain area could potentially make play predictable

You're right. That's why I never give final third instructions when my team's really good. Passing style no different. Saying yes to one essentially means saying no (or less) to another which kicks in that predictability as you say. In theory 🤓

Edited by BatiGoal

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13 minutes ago, BatiGoal said:

You're right. That's why I never give final third instructions when my team's really good. Passing style no different. Saying yes to one essentially means saying no (or less) to another which kicks in that predictability as you say. In theory 🤓

Agreed, unless of course I’m trying to replicate a specific playstyle. Damn, we need more options 😂

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11 minutes ago, Nucleus said:

Agreed, unless of course I’m trying to replicate a specific playstyle. Damn, we need more options 😂

Just imagine what more tactical options would give us. A whole lot more discussion that's for sure. 😁

Ideally, I'd like to see a set of instructions for every player on the pitch rather than just for the att-minded players or per strata. Not only that, every player role should have a (slightly) different set. When that happens AND it actually works I'll file for a divorce 👍 

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5 minutes ago, BatiGoal said:

Ideally, I'd like to see a set of instructions for every player on the pitch rather than just for the att-minded players or per strata. 

Agreed, individual player instructions would be amazing tbh (as long as they work) 

9 minutes ago, BatiGoal said:

Not only that, every player role should have a (slightly) different set. When that happens AND it actually works I'll file for a divorce 👍 

Yep to this too, centre mids set to support or attack or defend for example right?

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I can’t really see SI adding either because they would just say go and play Touch instead which isn’t much help if you want to play on a phone but makes business sense to them as there’s not much point making FMM too close to Touch in terms of tactical options.

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5 minutes ago, Foxy said:

I can’t really see SI adding either because they would just say go and play Touch instead which isn’t much help if you want to play on a phone but makes business sense to them as there’s not much point making FMM too close to Touch in terms of tactical options.

No I can’t see it happening either tbh, we’re extremely limited on instructions though, even with the new final third ones

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12 minutes ago, Nucleus said:

No I can’t see it happening either tbh, we’re extremely limited on instructions though, even with the new final third ones

Perhaps a couple of new roles would be more likely which if they work as intended would add a few more options or even bring back an old role, BBM in DM would be very nice.

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