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Manjus

Help Building a Tactic for a Lone Striker

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On 19/10/2019 at 23:36, BatiGoal said:

Interesting % to focus on, and that's of course all that matters when building tactics for a lone striker. Never really had my striker stats "numbered" like that, more like a rough estimate on his total team goals, until this discussion.

Just be careful tho as percentages can be deceiving at times. Scoring 100 team gls/season with your guy netting 50 puts him on 50%, fewer team gls essentially means higher % for your striker if he nets the same amount. So it could be a deceiving number is all I'm saying really. But is does make a good platform to build on. 

Yeah, I understand that, I know the total goals approach works better for others. I just never could make it work as well for me.

I've watched you in particular over the last couple of years do things like have 5 up front and have it work out for your striker, but whenever I went too attacking, my striker got overshadowed. I guess that might just be down to the choice of players I had (often a weaker striker, but better other players because I tend to use regens). 

It all started with my first 1KC, when Armstrong had high Teamwork and Passing and loved to assist, so I went direct and tried to keep other players out of the box so Armstrong would have no choice but to shoot. I was still using Attacking or Overload in those days though. Then I went more attacking for a bit, but could never break out of 4 3 2 1 being best. Then this year I went Defensive because my team was weak and hey bingo, my current instructions came together and are what work best for me this year. Next year? Who knows!

Anyway, will be really interested to see how your experiments go. 

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just want to chime in and agree that it's a fascinating discussion - fundamentally a whole load of things i'm too scared to try properly. i tend to find i have big wobbles when i deviate from the few things i'm comfortable with, so i only give it 5-7 games and then i switch back... will be interesting to see how it goes with the new game...

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42 minutes ago, Mr Tree said:

just want to chime in and agree that it's a fascinating discussion - fundamentally a whole load of things i'm too scared to try properly. i tend to find i have big wobbles when i deviate from the few things i'm comfortable with, so i only give it 5-7 games and then i switch back...

LOL, that is a large part of why I am on my current tactic. I've tried other things, but if it doesn't work quickly, I come running back to it..

43 minutes ago, Mr Tree said:

will be interesting to see how it goes with the new game...

It will indeed. This year's version was quite different for me, my tactic is much more powerful than in previous versions because A) Aerial 20 strikers can't stop scoring if you are set up to take advantage of that; B) it's relatively easy to get strikers to Aerial 20 in the first place. If either of those change next year, my tactic will definitely need an overhaul...

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3 hours ago, Scratch said:

Anyway, will be really interested to see how your experiments go. 

There's a few I'm messing with but the end of 19 is approaching so I'll need to redo them in FMM20 anyways. You'll hear from me if there's interesting findings. 

1 hour ago, Scratch said:

Arzani got 96 assists! It was stupid amazing

Some number 👍

Have you experimented with passing focus on the flank your Winger's on? I've done flanks but not singling out just one. Would be interesting to know if it makes a significant difference and if so build a formation around a single flank, imagine the number of assists. Have my doubts FMM will have any of it tho. 

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51 minutes ago, BatiGoal said:

There's a few I'm messing with but the end of 19 is approaching so I'll need to redo them in FMM20 anyways. You'll hear from me if there's interesting findings. 

Makes sense, could be a whole new ball game next year.

52 minutes ago, BatiGoal said:

Have you experimented with passing focus on the flank your Winger's on? I've done flanks but not singling out just one. Would be interesting to know if it makes a significant difference and if so build a formation around a single flank, imagine the number of assists. Have my doubts FMM will have any of it tho. 

Yeah I tried it and and it didn't work at all. I'm using Mixed at the moment. Whenever I try a focus of Down Both Flanks or Right, I have trouble scoring. It's much less effective. It's so so so counter intuitive...

Basically my formation and tactics naturally force the ball to the flanks and it's an assist fest, but try to do that on purpose and nah uh, no way...

I explained why (I think) my tactics are forcing the ball wide above somewhere, but basically:

  • WBs being the only outlet mean that many plays start out wide
  • Then with Ws in front of them, the WBs generally don't carry the ball all the way down the flank.
  • Instead they pass it, normally either to the W in front, who can then cross, or inside to the CM.
  • If the CM gets it, then because we're Defensive and they are a CM, they aren't going to do much with it except pass it.
  • Who is there to pass to? Sometimes the AP, but most often the W. They don't even need to turn. They get the ball from the WB and tap it on to the W.
  • Assist!

Not every time, but it's a recurring pattern that happens a lot. 

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I found that when I used focused passing down one side to my winger it actually increased their goal output rather than their assists, which was weird. I guess it works in a way I didn’t expect.

In my 2k with Geubbels I played mixed direction passing all through and found that most assists came from my best player out of the attacking players that aren’t my poacher, regardless of which position they played. 

Sometimes, though, I find I end up convincing myself of certain things, rather than them being factual, in an epic quest to summise a methodology of play.

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13 hours ago, PriZe said:

@Scratch is your experience the same with WB's when using overlap? 

Hmm, haven't checked that out - I'll watch for it. I have used both early crosses and look for overlap in the past, but didn't notice much difference to the end result so turned them off - but I wasn't looking at that detail. Will check next time I play 

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3 hours ago, Rob said:

I found that when I used focused passing down one side to my winger it actually increased their goal output rather than their assists, which was weird. I guess it works in a way I didn’t expect.

Interesting. I didn't particularly notice more goals for my winger, just less assists for him and less goals for the striker, but it could have been that. I do remember that the results weren't as good overall as well (ie less goals) but I guess that makes sense if my wingers are taking shots instead of putting it on the head of the striker in the 6 yard box.

3 hours ago, Rob said:

In my 2k with Geubbels I played mixed direction passing all through and found that most assists came from my best player out of the attacking players that aren’t my poacher, regardless of which position they played. 

Yeah, this seems consistent with what I've noticed (though I didn't think to write it up this way). 😄

3 hours ago, Rob said:

Sometimes, though, I find I end up convincing myself of certain things, rather than them being factual, in an epic quest to summise a methodology of play.

LoL, this! I do this all the time. I've actually learned a heck of lot in this thread because I've actually started looking at what's really happening instead of just seeing it's working and making assumptions about the why...

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On 21/10/2019 at 21:47, PriZe said:

@Scratch is your experience the same with WB's when using overlap? 

@PriZe I didn't notice any difference. I only played a couple of games with overlap on and the WBs stayed back like the screenshots above.

That said, even with my current tactic, occasionally the WBs go on runs further up-field and put a cross in. This seems to happen when they get to the point where they'd normally pass but the other players aren't quite in the right position, so they keep going. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. And what I can't tell is whether this happened more often with overlap turned on or whether it was the same. 

But in general, they looked to pass rather than run and when they weren't carrying the ball, they stayed back.

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17 hours ago, PriZe said:

@Scratch Yeah i can imagine it will be hard to tell the difference. Hmm interesting🤷🏼‍♂️

Yeah, it's need an in-depth investigation - maybe watching extended highlights with overlap both on and off and manually counting up how many runs the WBs make for each. I'd like to know, but don't have enough time right now to actually do it!

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1 hour ago, Scratch said:

Yeah, it's need an in-depth investigation - maybe watching extended highlights with overlap both on and off and manually counting up how many runs the WBs make for each. I'd like to know, but don't have enough time right now to actually do it!

If you really wanted to go in depth with it you could save both matches and watch them in full from the main menu. That would give a much more accurate result :) 

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1 hour ago, Nucleus said:

If you really wanted to go in depth with it you could save both matches and watch them in full from the main menu. That would give a much more accurate result :) 

Great thinking! I'll get right on it. Sometime in the next year or two. 🤣

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Sorry I’m late to the party and my posts also lack the finesse of some of the editing, but imo Lainez is the ideal assister for a 1kc. Just gotta stop his shooting from getting out of yellow and he is beast...

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9 minutes ago, SirSpankorama said:

Sorry I’m late to the party and my posts also lack the finesse of some of the editing, but imo Lainez is the ideal assister for a 1kc. Just gotta stop his shooting from getting out of yellow and he is beast...

Seen but never used him. Just had another look and he looks quality. Only 18yo with 12.5M release clause. I'd say Winger down the left or retrain to play in AMC as AP. 

Where did you play him? 

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3 hours ago, SirSpankorama said:

Sorry I’m late to the party and my posts also lack the finesse of some of the editing, but imo Lainez is the ideal assister for a 1kc. Just gotta stop his shooting from getting out of yellow and he is beast...

I've used and Lainez is great but I found Jota from SL Benfica is the best assister for 1kc got his crossing, dribbling, passing, stamina and pace max out

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17 hours ago, Lord Danish said:

I've used and Lainez is great but I found Jota from SL Benfica is the best assister for 1kc got his crossing, dribbling, passing, stamina and pace max out

Wow, need to check him out. Will do on a challenge save I’m planning to do on 20. I’ve never done a challenge before, so it will be interesting.

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Ok, i have a slightly weird kind of an experience. Currently in my Zaniolo career and with his rapidly dropping attributes, i tweaked the tactic a little bit. Earlier i used to have him as a Treq. with IF's on both sides and Work into Box which played exactly the way it intended too with Zaniolo getting the lion's share of goals. Now since he can only play about 60% of matches with him hitting 40, i thought to maximize his potential and changed to Shoot on Sight and passing focus as on both flanks and short and deputed pacy IF's on both sides. 

The result is that the IF's are getting plenty of penalties which Zaniolo is converting and when trying first time shots, Zaniolo scores from rebound. So, he actually has to do less work and still can score. I don't know if all this observation is in my head or this is actually being played out this way. Hope you all can explain it.

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I honestly am not sure what to think, in full-fat FM that sort of thinking is used a lot (I have some experience with it) but when you have as limited options as FMM provides us I think at some point people will hit the logical formulas required to make these kinds of decisions. So it could either be that the players you play are contributing more, or the tactic is contributing more, but my guess is that if you have a player with "Tries first time shots" or a similar trait as your IF you could get different results. It could also be the league you are in has a very high level of tackling (in FM at least there is a marked difference between leagues) so you may not get the same results in Champions League games.

I recall reading a few times that player traits in positions tab were based solely on attributes; in FM this is not the case, I'm not sure about FMM. One interesting contradiction is that if yellow creativity truly means the "Plays no through balls" trait shows up as green (fits with role) in the positions tab under the poacher role, why is creativity an emphasized trait for poachers?

But in any case it's still quite an interesting, deep phenomenon, and that type of longer thinking I have also seen in tactics like Foxy and Ashez's gegenpressing and tiki-taka tactic. But I'm not sure if that kind of thinking is actually CAUSING the results to work out or if they, and you, are just creating really solid tactics that really work.

Sorry for the long sermon, but this is the most interesting topic I've ever seen on vibe, and I've been spectating account-less since 18.

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5 hours ago, SirSpankorama said:

I honestly am not sure what to think, in full-fat FM that sort of thinking is used a lot (I have some experience with it) but when you have as limited options as FMM provides us I think at some point people will hit the logical formulas required to make these kinds of decisions. So it could either be that the players you play are contributing more, or the tactic is contributing more, but my guess is that if you have a player with "Tries first time shots" or a similar trait as your IF you could get different results. It could also be the league you are in has a very high level of tackling (in FM at least there is a marked difference between leagues) so you may not get the same results in Champions League games.

I recall reading a few times that player traits in positions tab were based solely on attributes; in FM this is not the case, I'm not sure about FMM. One interesting contradiction is that if yellow creativity truly means the "Plays no through balls" trait shows up as green (fits with role) in the positions tab under the poacher role, why is creativity an emphasized trait for poachers?

But in any case it's still quite an interesting, deep phenomenon, and that type of longer thinking I have also seen in tactics like Foxy and Ashez's gegenpressing and tiki-taka tactic. But I'm not sure if that kind of thinking is actually CAUSING the results to work out or if they, and you, are just creating really solid tactics that really work.

Sorry for the long sermon, but this is the most interesting topic I've ever seen on vibe, and I've been spectating account-less since 18.

I barely looking at their traits if I play FMM as it doesn't seems to have much impact on the game but still use them when playing normal FM though

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6 hours ago, SirSpankorama said:

One interesting contradiction is that if yellow creativity truly means the "Plays no through balls" trait shows up as green (fits with role) in the positions tab under the poacher role, why is creativity an emphasized trait for poachers?

My guess would be... cause that's all we can do at this point.. my guess it that multiple traits fall under the same "Creativity umbrella" if you will. For Poachers it might be 'tries first time shots' as they need to be creative (original) to score that impossible goal. For APs obviously that 'through ball' or 'killer pass'. 

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34 minutes ago, BatiGoal said:

My guess would be... cause that's all we can do at this point.. my guess it that multiple traits fall under the same "Creativity umbrella" if you will. For Poachers it might be 'tries first time shots' as they need to be creative (original) to score that impossible goal. For APs obviously that 'through ball' or 'killer pass'. 

Or that could be decisions, or a combination of long shot hidden trait, decisions and creativity... you get the picture.

 

On the other hand, this could be a handy way to see hidden traits outside of the coach report page (which for all we know could be completely inaccurate all the time)

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That's some great discussion. But forgot to mention one important thing, it is a strikerless tactic in my career. Don't know if it will happen the same with a striker?? 

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17 hours ago, Kanegan said:

That's some great discussion. But forgot to mention one important thing, it is a strikerless tactic in my career. Don't know if it will happen the same with a striker?? 

I don’t think I’ve noticed a major difference in the way these mechanics work by position, but it’s intriguing...

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On 07/11/2019 at 00:17, SirSpankorama said:

But I'm not sure if that kind of thinking is actually CAUSING the results to work out or if they, and you, are just creating really solid tactics that really work.

I'm guessing the latter, the tactics have a bigger say on player performances compared to those role traits. For example, in one of my saves I managed PSG with Cavani, Neymar and Mbappé. And I remember Mbappé and Neymar in particular scoring better in a role with fewer green traits. They were the IF, AF and P roles with 3-4 green traits in one vs 6-7 in the other. Can't remember which one for which player exactly, I'd have to check, but I do recall getting a better performance out of the player in the fewer green traits one. Most likely because it's a more suitable role for said player within that formation. 

If those green traits aren't mere translations of players' attributes and they do in fact tell of a player's hidden attributes/stats then they seem to affect results mightily little. 

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3 hours ago, BatiGoal said:

I'm guessing the latter, the tactics have a bigger say on player performances compared to those role traits. For example, in one of my saves I managed PSG with Cavani, Neymar and Mbappé. And I remember Mbappé and Neymar in particular scoring better in a role with fewer green traits. They were the IF, AF and P roles with 3-4 green traits in one vs 6-7 in the other. Can't remember which one for which player exactly, I'd have to check, but I do recall getting a better performance out of the player in the fewer green traits one. Most likely because it's a more suitable role for said player within that formation. 

 If those green traits aren't mere translations of players' attributes and they do in fact tell of a player's hidden attributes/stats then they seem to affect results mightily little. 

Or maybe those traits are a "recommendation" to newer players, e.g. "Don't put the TM who passes to feet in the poacher role, because he will play no through balls."

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This response from Marc Vaughan a couple of years ago might have some relevance if we're discussing traits: 

He has more posts as you go down that thread. It's a couple of years old, so could be out of date, but I haven't noticed any difference...

 

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On 08/11/2019 at 03:08, Scratch said:

This response from Marc Vaughan a couple of years ago might have some relevance if we're discussing traits: 

He has more posts as you go down that thread. It's a couple of years old, so could be out of date, but I haven't noticed any difference...

 

Wow, that's a treasure trove of information! Well I guess now I have to check a player's traits before I sign them. Great find.

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