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Chat Opinion: No Improvement on FMM19


samhardy
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1 hour ago, Woody said:

Its a tactically inept game. It lacks variation massively. 

It is, but people bang on about older versions being their favourite, when the tactical AI was probably worse then. For me the games about fun. It can be a very easy game when you have all the great players though, it’d be good if they could introduce a better tactical AI but it’s not a huge thing imo

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58 minutes ago, Nucleus said:

2million copies across all platforms last year. Let’s assume that mobile sold what? 300k? 500k? That’s a minimum of £2.7million from the mobile game alone. They have a team of three developers + a few QA staff. You’re telling me that sort of money doesn’t deserve more investment in future titles? You’re absolutely blinded if you do

This is something I've accidentally been looking into in recent months. 

The app store takes 30%, according to an article I cba to find that is the industry standard. 

300-500k sold seems a decent estimate, the Android store says 2019 sold over 100k which we can assume Ios matched or beat so I'd say 200-300sh but obviously that's just assuming and guessing. And not taking into account sales. 

So say it made 2m, - the 30%, a few decent developer contracts and you'd have a decent amount left. Obviously licences are a massive cost but we don't know how they work with FM etc. 

Unfortunately that decent amount doesn't come close to the estimated between 1m odd FM sold at £20-30 compared to FMM being £9. FMM is a small fish, but yeah it deserves more investment imo. 

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FMM is a small fish thats true, but you shouldnt have the exact same bugs in the game that you had previous year let alone years before..we all know some bugs that are still in the game have been there since fmh15/16 and thats pretty unprofessional..even if it is just 9 pounds its still money and nobody wants to pay any amount of money to have the same bugs over and over again

I am not disappointed in SI mobile department because game gets sketchy here and there..I know they are small and on budget and I am fine with that because it usually is not gamebreaking..I do not expect a miracle and I think most of us do not

But you simply can not release new features to make the game better and more in depth without previously addressing what was wrong with previous version..its been like that since fmh15, they just went forward without addressing lot of issues Vibers pointed out throughout the year..that is what pisses us off 

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4 minutes ago, Lav50 said:

just 9 pounds its still money and nobody wants to pay any amount of money to have the same bugs over and over again

Thats the issue though as people are still buying it regardless of the games history, unless SI get hit in the money why'd they change their ways. 

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same here. Back to FM19 still enjoyable with a lot of patience (save games to avoid odd issues) and the cost of editor (stupid regen names, after a couple of seasons Norwegians bear Irish surnames, Montenegrins bear Tahitian surnames; plus players opting for their second nationalities in real life.

 

a comment on CM 2001-2002: I too played for a long stretch thanks to a brilliant defunct forum. Stability and ability to edit the engine was key to success. If SI, for obvious economical reasons, only sets three engineers for development, why not give the community more latitude? The Swedes of Paradox games understood it long ago, making every title a huge success in spite of numerous bugs at start.

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Thanks to everyone for contributing to the discussion whether you agree with what I had to say or not. Enjoyed reading through the replies and seeing people's viewpoints, I was actually pleasantly surprised most of you seemed to agree with me.

On 29/11/2019 at 08:08, Jens said:

@samhardy it does baffle me how you manage to remain on as moderator, seeing how long it's been since you've actually enjoyed this game. Taking your review under consideration, how do you do it? :D 

Regular rants and regular breaks away, plus the thought of either you or even worse @Ashez taking my place as mod fills me with fear ;)

On 29/11/2019 at 14:00, Foxy said:

Looking on the AppStore and the game has had nearly 3k reviews with an average score of 4.8/5.

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Not quite as favourable on Android but then it never is as iOS always seems much less bugged than Android. Still much more positive than negative though.

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I don’t expect these scores to change much as they are almost identical to FMM19 if memory serves me.
Ultimately unless the game tanks in terms of sales and reviews which is looking unlikely atm and with only F2P aka pay to win games as competition I don’t see much changing in the near future.

The stores are a dark place!

On 29/11/2019 at 15:37, SophiaFM said:

I like it. The new features like mentoring, reserves, presentation are all good. I like the bigger pitch and the new ball aswell in game. I don’t see nothing much wrong with it 🤷‍♀️

I'm pleased you're enjoying it. I'll ask you and anyone else currently in the same boat again in a couple of months time whether you're still on board ;)

On 29/11/2019 at 19:09, S4NCH0 said:

I'm all against negativity this time. I understand the frustration of some here, you guys want to see your beloved game being overhauled year in and year out from what I sense. And again, its understandable. We all want to play with new exciting features and we would all like our desired features to be added to the game. In that sense I'm not different from you. But man, you shouldn't expect wonders from a game that costs 9 fucking pounds. IMO the relations "price to fun", "price to quality" and "price to game-time" you can get from FMM, are the best I've ever seen in a phone game. If you want better depth, tactics, interactions, etc. you can pay the price of FM20 and play it you computer. If you want better gameplay, 3d engine and more user involvement, then pay the price and play FIFA20. If you don't want to pay those prices then you also have the option to play FMTouch in a tablet. But if once again you don't want or can't play those prices, then your option is FMM20, a 9.fucking.pounds.game. 

 

I am currently studying programming and game development is one of the hardest, toughest, most time and energy consuming, areas of programming. One of those features you bash and rant about, probably took a small team of people hours to make. I can only imagine the countless hours and headaches the team must have gone through to get the tactics working, or the horrendous amount of work that creating regens must mean. Yes, they could probably go big one day and improve a couple of major things, but that would mean increasing their working force, and guess what? That costs money. And guess what? You only pay them 9 fucking.pounds. 

 

I don't know about you guys, but getting countless hours of fun, being able to do something while waiting inside a bus in traffic, being able to have my favorite leagues, and players in my pocket anytime and anywhere I want , etc. for only 9 pounds is huge thing. Last year's version gave me almost 900 hours of gameplay which translates 0.01 pounds per hour, which is astonishing. There's few games that cost 0.01 or less that I would play for an hour, just to put it into perspective. Now, if you want to bash a 9 pound game and expect from it what you'd expect from more expensive game, go ahead. But I do think it's out of place and it could be catalogued as whining.

I can't help but think you've missed the point of my post, value for money has never been an issue for me and I never have or will complain about that. I also never mentioned it in my OP. My main problem is the game clearly standing still or dare I say going backwards, and the amount of utter bullshit that gets added year in year out to distract us from major issues within the game. It's always meant to be "pick up and play" - now it's pick up and throw device out the window in frustration.

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1 hour ago, samhardy said:

I'm pleased you're enjoying it. I'll ask you and anyone else currently in the same boat again in a couple of months time whether you're still on board ;)

I’ve honestly enjoyed every FMM I’ve played since 2014. There could be more, better features of course but you can only do so much without turning into full fat on a mobile, simplicity of it is fine and I wouldn’t play it if I didn’t enjoy. Same with people who moan about it a lot 😉

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23 minutes ago, SophiaFM said:

I’ve honestly enjoyed every FMM I’ve played since 2014. There could be more, better features of course but you can only do so much without turning into full fat on a mobile, simplicity of it is fine and I wouldn’t play it if I didn’t enjoy. Same with people who moan about it a lot 😉

We dont want full fat FM on mobile. No one is asking for it. 

Its the same old tactics that work all the time and everyone tries to find that little obscure gem which never comes. 

Yes most team irl play a 433 but play it differently from each other and that cant be replicated in game. Which it should be. 

CM01/02 had 'wibwob' which made pretty much most tactics unique as you could manipulate how your players and squad used the pitch. Im not saying thats where we should be heading but extra instructions atleast would be a start. I couldnt care less if the color scheme or the layout stayed the same for ever but football is a tactical game and FMM seriously lacks in that element at the moment. 

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1 hour ago, Woody said:

We dont want full fat FM on mobile. No one is asking for it. 

Its the same old tactics that work all the time and everyone tries to find that little obscure gem which never comes. 

Yes most team irl play a 433 but play it differently from each other and that cant be replicated in game. Which it should be. 

CM01/02 had 'wibwob' which made pretty much most tactics unique as you could manipulate how your players and squad used the pitch. Im not saying thats where we should be heading but extra instructions atleast would be a start. I couldnt care less if the color scheme or the layout stayed the same for ever but football is a tactical game and FMM seriously lacks in that element at the moment. 

I’m too young to have played CM01/02 but that’s fair enough 

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1 hour ago, SophiaFM said:

I’m too young to have played CM01/02 but that’s fair enough 

We can always get the pirated version to play right now

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6 minutes ago, Lord Danish said:

We can always get the pirated version to play right now

It’s not pirated, CM 01/02 has been legally and freely available for download for years now. Not sure directly where from but FMScout have the info and link to it I think.

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1 minute ago, samhardy said:

It’s not pirated, CM 01/02 has been legally and freely available for download for years now. Not sure directly where from but FMScout have the info and link to it I think.

Wow never know that maybe I’ll get them when I have finish fixing my laptop

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Personally I think it’s a big step up from fmm19.  No game is perfect and FMM will always have bugs and quirks. But for £9 and getting a full years play out of it with the challenges here etc it’s a bl00dy bargain. I’ve played terrible games where you’ll easily spend £50+ a month just to compete. 
 

Sure the community here makes the game what it is but the actually game itself and the resource that goes into it is massive. It’ll never be perfect. But it’ll always be better than championship manager and all the other cr@p on the App Store passing themselves off as football manger games. 
 

Saying about the game standing still or even going backwards. Updating the player lists alone is a huge step forward let alone adding any new features. Sure the new features May only be cosmetic but they’re updates thousands of players stats for a new season. That alone is a huge update. 

Edited by MikeF
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5 hours ago, samhardy said:

My main problem is the game clearly standing still or dare I say going backwards, and the amount of utter bullshit that gets added year in year out to distract us from major issues within the game.

If I have to be critical then this is exactly it. Perhaps I'd be selfish to ask for a couple more tactical options or refinements but I don't want to be greedy (meaning disappointed more like). Imo the main thing that bothers me right now that never ever gets fixed/improved is the utter shit AI squad management and "tactical awareness". 

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On 29/11/2019 at 20:09, S4NCH0 said:

I am currently studying programming and game development is one of the hardest, toughest, most time and energy consuming, areas of programming. One of those features you bash and rant about, probably took a small team of people hours to make. I can only imagine the countless hours and headaches the team must have gone through to get the tactics working, or the horrendous amount of work that creating regens must mean. 

I have some experience in the tech industry, and I see your (valid) point. 

But I'm not sure you fully @samhardy's point. Most of these "improvements" are just embellishments that don't really add functionality to the game, or aren't needed (I reckon they're needed to distract the players from the stagnation/regression). I don't think I need to add to what Woody has said, but the reserve leagues thing especially annoys me. It's not particularly useful, and to me, it just looks like they made an invisible process visible. The process still was there without reserve leagues, and arguably, loans work much better. I'm not sure anybody asked for it. No new roles, no tactical improvements whatsoever.

There's something else though, the business model of Sega, at least with respect to the Football Manager franchise. It's obvious the real deal is FM. Running two games for mobile devices isn't particularly fun, and I think they'll (Sega) push FMM to obscurity (stagnation is better, but the end point is probably obscurity) and work on FMT to expand functionality and eventually move everyone to Touch. The only issue is that most mobile users don't play FMM for an in-depth managerial experience (more depth obviously would be better, but not too much). It's to use time. Touch requires more attention (FMM is more plug-and-play), and FM requires infinitely more focus than the rudimentary FMM. I'm not sure what net profit would come from moving to FMT.

Even if nothing was added, the release day bugs should've gone. Unfortunately not. That being said, I'll continue to play FMM (the jury's still out on when I'll buy it) but the lack of improvement is worth losing it over. 

Edited by Deji
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13 hours ago, Woody said:

We dont want full fat FM on mobile. No one is asking for it. 

Its the same old tactics that work all the time and everyone tries to find that little obscure gem which never comes. 

Yes most team irl play a 433 but play it differently from each other and that cant be replicated in game. Which it should be. 

The team instructions aren't exactly "tactical diversity". It's worse than rudimentary. Coding in extra instructions and roles shouldn't be that hard.

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7 hours ago, Deji said:

The team instructions aren't exactly "tactical diversity". It's worse than rudimentary. Coding in extra instructions and roles shouldn't be that hard.

Exactly. We just need more control over what players do in game. 

Tactical diversity is what football is.... Without it we might as well be playing FMM lads n dads edition! 

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13 hours ago, Deji said:

Coding in extra instructions and roles shouldn't be that hard.

Actually, I'd expect that to be the single hardest part of the game to code. Every time they add new instructions or roles (or tweak existing ones), it will impact a whole bunch of other stuff in unexpected ways. If they add a new role or instruction, they have to make sure that it works as expected with every other sensible combination of roles and instructions (and players who don't all behave the same).

If they add an option for a DLF to come wide to the wings, then they have to make sure that the W does something sensible when they do so. Same with the wide AM and IF. And it needs to be sensible with both early crosses and look for overlap on. And other roles might need to do something else as well: does the AM need to advance into the space left or play as normal? Should the LW come into the box if the DLF has gone to the right? Maybe only if we have a single striker formation, no need if there is still a TM in the box, right? What if the LW has a low Teamwork rating? What if they have poor Movement? etc etc etc. 

One change will maybe impact hundreds of different scenarios and each one increases the risk of weird buggy shit happening. 

If you are going to say that they should just give us more choice with the instructions and we can decide what happens in those scenarios, well it's going to be horridly complex and very buggy. I'm sure they are smoothing out a shitload of weird stuff and edge cases already.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be trying to make the match engine more solid and more reliable or that they shouldn't introduce more roles or instructions - of course they should, this is a key part of their product and they need to focus on that.

However, I don't think many appreciate just how hard it is to make an AI driven match engine that tries to map real life for 22 people running around in a variety of positions, roles and following a variety of instructions and with different attributes, in a way that is realistic and not repetitive or a lot buggier than it is... 

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15 hours ago, Deji said:

The team instructions aren't exactly "tactical diversity". It's worse than rudimentary. Coding in extra instructions and roles shouldn't be that hard.

Tbh the FMM gameplay itself is already be very buggy and adding more roles or instruction will make it more and more buggy

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3 hours ago, Scratch said:

Actually, I'd expect that to be the single hardest part of the game to code. Every time they add new instructions or roles (or tweak existing ones), it will impact a whole bunch of other stuff in unexpected ways. If they add a new role or instruction, they have to make sure that it works as expected with every other sensible combination of roles and instructions (and players who don't all behave the same).

Valid, especially with the realisation (I actually didn't know that before until I reread the whole thing, then discovered I missed it) that Mobile only has 3 developers (Sega, according to Wikipedia, has around 115). Makes the task a lot harder. Even website development has around that same number.

It puts the whole bugs problem in context, seeing as 3 developers- with their own dedicated projects, and who also might be working on the main Football Manager- probably do not have the exhaustive oversight to monitor all the bugs and observe how the roles and instructions intersect. 

The complexity of the task and the extremely low staff numbers adds to my idea that Mobile might be set aside in the coming years. I'm unsure, though, about the reason. Assuming Mobile sold 100k+ copies for 8.99, 899 thousand dollars is enough (putting that a sizeable amount will be reinvested) to get one or two extra Devs on board. 

Which then begs the question, Why not? 

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15 hours ago, Lord Danish said:

Tbh the FMM gameplay itself is already be very buggy and adding more roles or instruction will make it more and more buggy

Tough.

Football is about tactics and man management plain and simple. 

Maybe updates instead of a new game every year would be better then every 2 years or so release a fully updated game. 

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