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Chat Discussion: IGE and Challenge issues


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The IGE is perhaps most useful for player potential scouting, especially because potential varies among saves and it distinguishes bad from good regens. But there is a problem associated with this that this discussion thread attempts to discuss a solution to.

 

Did you know that if you start a save with IGE enabled, it becomes enabled on ALL your saves? And when you start a save with it disabled, it disappears on ALL your saves. Going from one test save to another, I discovered this issue by chance. I don't have access to screenshots myself, but I invite you to try it.

 

Many of you have probably noticed this issue before, but I have never seen a thread about it. I do not know if this is new to FMM20.

 

The effect of this, however, is that challenges here can be SEVERELY compromised by people starting new saves with and without IGE. Meaning that careers which are "too perfect" (like some we have recently seen) may be affected by this bug, even if their screenshots show no IGE. Even if saves are given to moderators, this can STILL be hidden visually (although I do not know if there is a way in the code to figure this out)

 

Is this a bug or intentional? How long has it existed? And what should we do about it as relates to challenges and trust?

 

Let's discuss.

Edited by SirSpankorama
grammatical edits
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It's always like that, there is no trace of IGE used if you don't edit the save and just use it to look at the player's PA. Pretty sure if you edited the save, the IGE icon will remain yellow even if you turned it off in other saves. 

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2 hours ago, SirSpankorama said:

Meaning that careers which are "too perfect" (like some we have recently seen) may be affected by this bug, even if their screenshots show no IGE.

My guess is that reloading is a much more used "tool" in such careers than IGE. But that's what it is, a guess. I honestly can't be bothered to play detective anymore. I play my game and I enjoy it. 

I do understand your concern tho. 

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We have the wonderkid list which gives an overview of the highest potential players at the start of a save so I’m not sure how big an issue it is tbh. I know the PA can vary but then the IGE only gives you a rough star rating so Mbappe for example would always have a 5 star PA but that could range from 175 -200 in different saves as far as I know. Essentially the WK strikers on the list are all capable of completing a 1k or another goalscoring challenge as with good coaches and facilities they will develop into world class players and you don’t need the IGE to tell you that.

As @BatiGoal has already said reloading is as old as the first Champ Man’s and every forum has suffered from it since the very first CM websites were set up. Luckily I think in a lot of cases it is pretty obvious when reloading is being used and if someone doesn’t give any reason for doubt then I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

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OP, I understand your concern and it really is a leap of faith when following unbelievable careers. Those careers become more believable when you get to know the forum member, their experience and their skills. 

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong and that everyone should do it but I like to share my tactic either in the tactic section or my career itself, so people may better understand how the results are achieved. SI then obviously nerf what works and my own personal fun is compromised but hey ho. 

Spend some time chatting in people’s challenge thread to get to know what’s really going on behind the curtain. 

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Pretty sure that once a save is edited (ie you change something), it will always show as edited. It does add something to the save file to indicated that save file has been edited. I haven't specifically tested that in FMM20, but I'd be super surprised if that had changed. 

But yeah, if it's not edited (ie no actual change), then you can turn the Editor on and off (through new games or in the Settings > Unlockables page) and there's no way of knowing whether someone has peaked behind the curtain. 

It's going to be even worse when I release my scouting app, whenever that is (not actually working on it at the moment, because I'm playing and it's hard to do both at the same time without accidentally seeing my challenge save). I've look at ways of marking the save as having been viewed, but it's harder than I thought it would be. 🙁

As others have said, there are other ways to get an advantage (the Wonderkid list) and to cheat (restarting saves, also editing PA, attributes, club finances, etc via a HEX editor following the guides on here).

So you gotta take some of it on trust. Or not. It's up to you to work out if you think a person is cheating and then just ignore those careers. *

I will say that there were some careers I used to look at and think 'no way, how can that be real'... and now, I get some pretty big numbers and others are probably thinking that about me... So there's that. Some people get pretty good with experience, some times things click with tactics, etc.  

* Umm, if you've noticed I haven't been reading your career, this it not the reason! Just under the hammer with real life at the moment for reasons I won't go into here and shamefully behind on following your careers. 😢

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I always thought that once the editor was enabled on a save then that was that and it couldn’t be taken off on that particular save. Interesting but as others have said I’d be pretty sure that reloading is more of an issue.

Can’t see a solution really so you just have to believe what you believe. It’s really that simple as you can never know for sure unless you get utter ridiculousness whereby it’s pretty obvious cheating has occurred.

Problem on here could be if achievements get really incredible then it could discourage people posting if they just can’t get anywhere near the returns. Other side of it is that someone may have worked on a great system, be perfectly legit and could end up not wanting to post due to worries they may come under suspicion.

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5 hours ago, billy2shots said:

I like to share my tactic either in the tactic section or my career itself, so people may better understand how the results are achieved.

That's definitely one of the reasons I generally share the tactic I use in my career. The other reason simply being the fact that I enjoy talking tactics. 

5 hours ago, Scratch said:

I will say that there were some careers I used to look at and think 'no way, how can that be real'... and now, I get some pretty big numbers and others are probably thinking that about me... 

100% 

If you were new to Vibe and never uttered a single word about that insane assist numbers you're getting I'd definitely believe you're full of shit 😄 not only because I can't come anywhere near those numbers on a consistent basis, but whoTF am I to measure yourself up against. It just -seemed- very unlikely. 

So as others have said, it helps a great deal to talk and discuss things in people's career threads and also explain a couple things in detail in one's own. 

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8 minutes ago, BatiGoal said:

If you were new to Vibe and never uttered a single word about that insane assist numbers you're getting I'd definitely believe you're full of shit 😄 not only because I can't come anywhere near those numbers on a consistent basis, but whoTF am I to measure yourself up against. It just -seemed- very unlikely. 

So as others have said, it helps a great deal to talk and discuss things in people's career threads and also explain a couple things in detail in one's own.

Oh, I am full of shit generally (but not with careers)! 😄

I wasn't thinking about the assists when I wrote that, but that's a great eg. There were a couple of people like @smoggy90 getting those numbers in 19 and I was like "no way!" Not saying there was any cheating going on, just I couldn't comprehend how it could be done. My best before that was 47 or something and there are people getting 90+?

But now I'm getting in the 70s most seasons, even got 96 once. I get that would be hard for others to understand, because I was right there too not long ago.

I guess that was *one* of the reasons I explained my tactic and how the winger got so many assists in that lone striker thread and other scattered places (though also I just like to share what I learn). I probably should bring all that together in one place, but I'm a bit hesitant to post it as an actual tactic or anything because of the problems that go with that. Still maybe I will... 

But you know, some people will probably look at my numbers and go nope... not real. Not much I can do about that (apart from explaining the tactic). And I can't get too upset about that because I get it...

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Well I love the points everyone is making, and I do think that the more “known” someone becomes around here, the more we can believe big numbers. The issue I mention is especially relevant in this type of case:

 

You want to start a 1kc with Koita, but you make lots of saves until he gets 5* potential, buy a bunch of players with 5* that might normally have 4* (Aouar is a good example of going all the way from 4* to 5* regularly).

 

You are 3 seasons in, and Modric and an obscure Croatian midfielder have just retired. There is no way to tell the difference between their regens, so you turn on the editor. You have only enough to buy the modric, then you are done.
 

Little things like these add up. I do agree reloading is a bigger problem, but it is very well known here. Editing a save leaves it yellow no matter what, but the PA measurement is huge, especially with a fluctuating player like Aouar.

 

 

11 hours ago, Scratch said:

Pretty sure that once a save is edited (ie you change something), it will always show as edited. It does add something to the save file to indicated that save file has been edited. I haven't specifically tested that in FMM20, but I'd be super surprised if that had changed. 

But yeah, if it's not edited (ie no actual change), then you can turn the Editor on and off (through new games or in the Settings > Unlockables page) and there's no way of knowing whether someone has peaked behind the curtain. 

It's going to be even worse when I release my scouting app, whenever that is (not actually working on it at the moment, because I'm playing and it's hard to do both at the same time without accidentally seeing my challenge save). I've look at ways of marking the save as having been viewed, but it's harder than I thought it would be. 🙁

As others have said, there are other ways to get an advantage (the Wonderkid list) and to cheat (restarting saves, also editing PA, attributes, club finances, etc via a HEX editor following the guides on here.

It would be great if it could mark saves as having been reloaded, HEX’d or peeked at, but I’m pretty sure I’m just dreaming here. 😂


Anyway, trust plays a big factor, especially with players getting 80+ goals first year of a first 1kc (you know who you are)

 

Is there any tips for detecting if a career poster reloads based on results, etc.?

 

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3 hours ago, SirSpankorama said:

Is there any tips for detecting if a career poster reloads based on results, etc.?

There's a couple things to look out for that could reveal "inconsistencies" which if it were to happen in every single career makes it highly suspicious. That along with the obvious ones, I think you know what I mean. 

But mentioning those in here would be playing into their hands so obviously I'm not saying anything further. Not here nor in PM. 

3 hours ago, SirSpankorama said:

There is no way to tell the difference between their regens, so you turn on the editor. You have only enough to buy the modric, then you are done.

Like others, have never had IGE so no idea this was even possible. Having read through a fair bunch of such threads over the years, I still have no clue what the attraction is of such IGE tools or hex nonsense. I honestly don't get what all that "under the table tinkering" gets people excited over.

Imho this unpredictability or randomness factor is what makes football -> football and FMM -> FMM. I'd never want to have that taken away from me.

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2 hours ago, SirSpankorama said:

You want to start a 1kc with Koita, but you make lots of saves until he gets 5* potential, buy a bunch of players with 5* that might normally have 4* (Aouar is a good example of going all the way from 4* to 5* regularly).

You are 3 seasons in, and Modric and an obscure Croatian midfielder have just retired. There is no way to tell the difference between their regens, so you turn on the editor. You have only enough to buy the modric, then you are done.

I have mixed feelings about this. I used to use regens a lot for challenges, under the "anything within the rules to get a higher score" philosophy. However I did a lot a test careers in FMM19 to test out my scouting app and what I found was: 

  • At least at Celtic (but from memory also at Newcastle), the top regens like Messi, Ronaldo, Modric, etc often didn't get anywhere near their PA. And if they did it took years. Maybe this wouldn't be the case at a top top club and they'd develop quicker? 
  • Anyway, That meant that although they were good players, their attribute level wasn't particularly astounding for the first few years and often didn't reach as high as you'd expect.
  • On the other hand someone with a PA of 150 would develop much more quickly and often end up with better attributes in the short to medium term. Maybe the PA 180 player would catch them up after 3 or so years, but the PA 150 player is likely to be better for a significant amount of time.
  • Honestly, a team full of 150 PA players is more than enough to win the CL year in year out. You don't need a team of PA180+ players.
  • I've even seen youth players with a PA of 130 end up with amazing attributes and do very well, to the point you'd probably think they actually were a top level regen. 
  • And the top regens are much more prone to coming back with a Work Rate of 1 or something stupid like that, whereas a PA150 regen is much more likely to be more well rounded

So these days, I don't think hunting the top regens (even if you can find them) or high PA players is particularly useful. Just buy players that have a good base, with a gap between CA and PA as reported by scouts and give them a go, then judge them on how they develop and how they perform.

That said, although I don't know the exact PA of the main players in my current career, I did choose players that I knew had a consistently high PA. I mean Koita for example is going to be 5* most of the time. Mind you, he seems to have a relaxed personality which you will need to get rid of through mentoring if you want to use him somewhere like Scotland! 😄 (he still occasionally can't be arsed for a particular game even though he is Normal now). 

So I don't think it's that important, but it's still hard to let go of that...

3 hours ago, SirSpankorama said:

It would be great if it could mark saves as having been reloaded, HEX’d or peeked at, but I’m pretty sure I’m just dreaming here. 😂

Yeah, I think SI Games are unlikely to do anything like that. If they wanted to, they could probably do something to detect reloads and they definitely could for Editor peeks. Nothing they could easily do about HEX or third party editors / apps (they could but would not be straightforward). But it's just not likely they will do anything as people doing challenges on Vibe are only a tiny part of their target audience.

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6 minutes ago, BatiGoal said:

Like others, have never had IGE so no idea this was even possible. Having read through a fair bunch of such threads over the years, I still have no clue what the attraction is of such IGE tools or hex nonsense. I honestly don't get what all that "under the table tinkering" gets people excited over.

I get the attraction, probably because I'm a software developer and I like working out how it works and understanding what's happening. That's a thrill in it's own right (for me at least).  

At the same, I totally agree with this: 

9 minutes ago, BatiGoal said:

Imho this unpredictability or randomness factor is what makes football -> football and FMM -> FMM. I'd never want to have that taken away from me.

That's part of why I love challenges, because I'm just playing the game, not trying to game it. Even with thing like using regens (when they were easy to find), when I let go of that and just play I get more enjoyment.

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6 hours ago, BatiGoal said:

There's a couple things to look out for that could reveal "inconsistencies" which if it were to happen in every single career makes it highly suspicious. That along with the obvious ones, I think you know what I mean. 

But mentioning those in here would be playing into their hands so obviously I'm not saying anything further. Not here nor in PM. 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about.

6 hours ago, Scratch said:

That's part of why I love challenges, because I'm just playing the game, not trying to game it. Even with thing like using regens (when they were easy to find), when I let go of that and just play I get more enjoyment.

I'm planning on starting a challenge after my long term saves are up, and this is part of the attraction for me.

 

I'm enjoying hearing all the different mentalities here, and I suppose we've seen common sense is the best "solution" to our issues here. 

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17 hours ago, Scratch said:

Oh, I am full of shit generally (but not with careers)! 😄

I wasn't thinking about the assists when I wrote that, but that's a great eg. There were a couple of people like @smoggy90 getting those numbers in 19 and I was like "no way!" Not saying there was any cheating going on, just I couldn't comprehend how it could be done. My best before that was 47 or something and there are people getting 90+?

But now I'm getting in the 70s most seasons, even got 96 once. I get that would be hard for others to understand, because I was right there too not long ago.

I guess that was *one* of the reasons I explained my tactic and how the winger got so many assists in that lone striker thread and other scattered places (though also I just like to share what I learn). I probably should bring all that together in one place, but I'm a bit hesitant to post it as an actual tactic or anything because of the problems that go with that. Still maybe I will... 

But you know, some people will probably look at my numbers and go nope... not real. Not much I can do about that (apart from explaining the tactic). And I can't get too upset about that because I get it...

My highest number in that career was 78 in a season but generally i was around 50-60 which was just over 1 per game. When you think that was a TT career and i had world class strikers then that is understandable and doable, especially as you were probably going to score from a header from a corner at least once per game. That seems a bit less of an occurrence now in '20 but then again i have mainly been using poor strikers.

I also think people see 1k assists and don't realise how long it takes to achieve that, it took me 20 seasons with Foden. Average that out to 50 a season then again i think it is realistic given the parameters of the game.

I am looking to start a 1k and assist challenge soon so would be interesting to compare to last year.

When you see people explaining their tactics and reasoning like you do @Scratchthen there can't be any disputing it in my opinion. It may not work for other people but that's because you have tailored it exactly to your team, players and targets you want to achieve. 

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Regarding regens, I hate getting recommended a player by my scout and having a good idea of who the player was before and equally hate people specifically searching for them in a 1kc or something similar. IMO the developers need to drastically change this.

Reloading is the bane of the forum. It is so obvious and casts a cloud over proper achievements, such as people smashing legitimate 2kcs or nailing a shed-tonne of assists by developing methodologies over years. 

I also hate how 4-3-2-1 is overpowered.

But on the topic of this op... with the IGE I don’t really see why anyone on here would use it unless doing an IGE specific challenge. However, whether anyone chooses to use it or not, they don’t really need to. A gold scout tells you a player has ‘potential to improve a lot in the future’ if they are going to be any good. That should be enough for anyone. Also, if you send your youth scout on a youth specific assignment from about three seasons in onwards then they pretty much return anyone with any good PA and the ‘Potential...’ comment, some of which you can pick up really cheaply.

So, yeah, IGE is cheating, but reloading seems more prevailent and regen-searching is equally as annoying.

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As an aside note, this is where the hidden attributes come into play. 

I would take a lesser PA (is it numbers? I thought that was only full fat FM) if that player had good consistency over someone labelled a wonder kid on his personal page who isn’t consistent.

Regens are a thorny subject, necessary to keep the game going 30 seasons by poorly executed by SI. I’ve tried all sorts, playing 20 odd year careers without making a single signing (luck if you get a good youth player), buying players without checking nationality etc. In the end they can’t really be avoided. 

I’ve resigned myself to use real players as much as possible but later in the game if I need a pacy winger with good crossing then I will chuck the attributes in the player search page and buy what I need, but not go and specifically hunt down former world beaters. 

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5 hours ago, Rob said:

Regarding regens, I hate getting recommended a player by my scout and having a good idea of who the player was before and equally hate people specifically searching for them in a 1kc or something similar. IMO the developers need to drastically change this.

Reloading is the bane of the forum. It is so obvious and casts a cloud over proper achievements, such as people smashing legitimate 2kcs or nailing a shed-tonne of assists by developing methodologies over years. 

I also hate how 4-3-2-1 is overpowered.

But on the topic of this op... with the IGE I don’t really see why anyone on here would use it unless doing an IGE specific challenge. However, whether anyone chooses to use it or not, they don’t really need to. A gold scout tells you a player has ‘potential to improve a lot in the future’ if they are going to be any good. That should be enough for anyone. Also, if you send your youth scout on a youth specific assignment from about three seasons in onwards then they pretty much return anyone with any good PA and the ‘Potential...’ comment, some of which you can pick up really cheaply.

So, yeah, IGE is cheating, but reloading seems more prevailent and regen-searching is equally as annoying.

for the regens, i don't understand why it has to be the same nation all the time - if you just randomise that (even a little) then you'd be alright. or, any other little tweak really. they seem to be close to a good way of doing that but one frustrating step away. it just seems silly to say that Wales will always have a world class left-winger, Togo will always have a great centre-forward, etc...

on the general theme, there's always someone who pushes it a bit too far - but frankly, those careers are boring to read. "oh i messed around and won the champions league, again!" - zzz. we just had a very obvious example where it was "too good to be true" - usually a giveaway, isn't it?

it's where on the other hand i'm more than happy to show my flaws - i think it's more interesting, plus gives me a little credibility. well, anyway, i don't achieve enough to fall under suspicion :D

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