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AdamNufc

FMM Artificial Intelligence


· Posted (edited)

FMM Artificial Intelligence 

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So I've been thinking of another article to write and I've settled on the idea to talk about the artificial intelligence ( or lack of ) in Football Manager Mobile

In Football Manager Mobile there is many moments where your left thinking ' what the actual F**k ' and I'm going to talk you through some examples 

Transfers

Short Changing 

Yes in real life clubs often perform a bit of shit housery and try to lowball clubs to tempt a bit of player unrest to get the player on the cheap but is it just me on in FMM do rival clubs often take the absolute biscuit? 

For example, you could have a player who has a couple years left on his deal and is wanting a new contract , he's your star performer season in season out worth about £98m and a rival club will offer you about £23m , thinking you either failed maths so bad you think this is a good offer or your that desperate to sell! This isn't a rare occurrence though as every season clubs will put in derisory offers for your star players thinking you will actually take the bait , surely this constant lowballing of your players , especially when you transfer list them needs to be fixed to make the game a bit more realistic 

Transfers between AI Teams 

How often do we see it on FMM where an aging Yaya Toure of 38 years will arrive at a Premier League club for around £35 million pounds a season or two after a club got him on a free and he only played 5 games over these two years? 

Or a 33 old Sterling could have only scored 1 goal in the last 3 seasons BUT a big club will sign him for £50million somehow expecting him to bag a hatful? 

Transfers between AI clubs are often ludicrous and based SOLELY on reputation and not performance , you'd want to see more clever transfer thinking from clubs where they spend there big money on players actually performing well in game , rather than being fixated on buying players with star studded reputations even if they are playing like a donkey on ice ( if you need reference to what this looks like , Google Joelintons highlight reel )

Or we get the opposite , we get clubs spending millions on a youngster from the Chinese 2nd Division who hasn't played a single game , it would be nice seeing some different approaches such as rich clubs maybe doing the Chelsea model , signing a bucket load of European youngsters and loaning them out  or just a lot more variety between ai clubs in the market especially with the same transfers pretty much happening save by save especially at the start 

Tactics 

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So your scout has dropped his scout report on the opposition into your inbox and you decide to give it a read so you can plan your tactics for the forthcoming game , you see they have a strong squad so plan accordingly starting your strongest possible squad 

Then upon arrival to the sideline you see this is how the opposition has lined up, the majority of the squad out of position and you will often find 3 or 4 token random youngsters in the starting line up as well

This can often happen later on in a save especially when your playing in Europe against a team such as Dynamo Kiev who isn't in the game , surely SI would be able to code it where half a opposition squad isn't going to be totally out of position , you know maybe for the sake of realism 

The opposition AI is so poor at being reactive to tactics , I've read on an SI Forum that the only way opposition teams ' react to your tactics is in 2 ways and both are down to form 

If your in good form opposition teams will change to play a defensive form of football 

If your in bad form your opposition will play attacking football 

BUT THIS IS NOT REALISTIC

For example teams should have set tactics depending on there manager , for example imagine your in poor form and and about to play José Mourinho , he wouldn't change his style for your form , he would still adhere to his tactical style 

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One thing I really want to see in future versions of FMM is in match reactions to your tactical changes. How often during a game do you look to see where your opposition is performing the weakest and change your tactics accordingly? If your like me then it's very often , opposition full backs playing poorly? Push your wingers up and get your full backs to overlap pinning them back putting them under pressure , know you have an extra man in midfield , play a control short passing game , notice your opposition defenders are slow , get a higher line , press more and sub on your fastest players 

The game is all about finding weak links in your opponent and exploiting them BUT your opponent never does this against you , it would be nice if you have weak links during the game your opponent could tweak their tactics giving you problems that you have to use your tactical brain to counter 

Managerial Appointments 

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Clubs in FMM appointing managers is very unrealistic , take for example in one save I witnessed Newcastle looking for a manager , surely they'd go with a man with some sort of experience in the premier League or English game but no they appoint Cosmin Olariou whose only notable position was 2 years ago managing Saudi Arabia

Or you more often than not see England appointing a manager such as Jonathan Woodgate or a man of the calibre of Neil Warnock rather than anyone if any sort of substance 

You could be managing Real Madrid in game , won 8 leagues on the bounce about 5 champions leagues and numerous Spanish cups and when the Spain Job comes available and your the greatest manager on the hall of fame and reply and you'd be rejecting and who would get the position? More often than not a past it Spaniard who was managing in Segunda B 

Yes it's a football game , football can throw strange things at you but in FMM moments that have you thinking what the hell is going on happen too often 

Player Morale 

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The player Morale system in FMM is absolutely butchered , the majority of players in game throw more strops than the average ex missus 

Players morale in game falls faster than Sunderland do through the English Football Pyramid. You could play a 17 old full back twice due to all your senior full backs being injured and then if you don't play him again BANG BANG , you have him kicking off saying he wants to leave , take that for every player , even players you have said are only squad players , you don't play them they will complain and in big groups , it's not an average season in FMM20 if you don't have the ! Icon next to about a quarter of your squad saying they are trying to ' ignore the squad divisions ' . Half your squad could have lost faith in you yet your board confidence will still say ' We are disappointed how you are performing in your role BUT we are please with the squad harmony '

You could have just given a player a contract , he could have 3 quality games in a row and the next thing he's crying saying he wants a new contract , this is two common an occurrence 

 Assistant Manager

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Finally how often is it your assistant manager basically just repeats himself , no matter what interaction you have with a player , the feed back you get is the same set outcomes for what you say 95 percent of the time 

For example if your wanting to boost morale you could tell all your players they've done fantastic in training , if you ever do this it is always this response no matter what player you decide to say to that his training has been good 

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It does not matter which player you use this option with the response from your assistant manager will be he worries the player will become over confident , if he worries about every player surely that basically confirms all players function as the same and do not have a personality 

I hope I've made some valid points here and that people enjoy reading this , any feed back would be much appreciated 😀

 

 

 

Edited by AdamNufc

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Great Article man ... Agree with all of it a lot needs to be coded better I find the transfer one a pain when I'm doing any save happens every time I do an arsenal save  someone always bids for lacazette who more often than not has a 55million value and they offer 27million just odd if I'm honest 

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Just finished my first season and big agree with the Morale and contract thing. Fellas literally asking for new contracts in freaking 2020 when the expiration dates are 24/25 or something.  

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I find it very frustrating about ageing squads...like mentioned above teams often sign big players who are like 35 years old on 5 year contracts on ridiculous wages...although yes this CAN happen, it happens far too often. The top teams AI seems to be majorly flawed because of that in most saves if you play 10-15 years you can see big teams simply falling down the league because there players are old, awful stats and on long contracts...this has been an issue over many years

 

Also!!! Teams buying one of your star players and they play like 3 games with their new team. Again yes this can happen in real life if things don't work out, however again happens too often.

I feel the morale however makes the game more challenging and slightly more realistic. Lose 3 games and morale is low and you feel like you need to scrape a good result. I like that. 

 

 

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Some good points Adam. One of the problems is the fact the game has to be playable on nearly every mobile device which means it can never be too in depth. Even this years game is a touch slower than last years, it’s not much but it’s noticeable on my iPhone SE and yet most wouldn’t say the two games changed that much really.

It seems they are trying to get this game as close to the full game as they can which is why they seem to want to increase all the media stuff but the thing is it’s almost like you can either have everything but nothing done too well as the game would be too big and slow or you could pick certain elements to focus on. Personally I’d prefer it if they just ditched the whole player personality aspect of the game and practically all of the media stuff and just focused on the tactic and squad building.

Even on the full game I could never be arsed about press conferences and team talks, just never has and never will interest me so I’d just send my assistant. I always laugh when people argue for realism when it comes to those like you can in any way replicate communicating with your players though your device.

Even if players have different personalities and it’s more varied like it might be on the full game you can bet after a while you’ll get to know exactly what the game wants for each player type I’m sure so it’ll be boring or it could be more random but then you’d just be guessing and hoping so just doesn’t interest me.

So in all most of the stuff you say I agree with but I just don’t see them being fixed or improved much unfortunately.

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Another thing that makes a mockery of the whole player happiness aspect of the game is the poor ratings for DM’s.

The EME is a modified version of the engine used on the full game about 15 or so years ago and that problems existed on those games where the DM would just get a lower rating than he should. It’s just a major flaw in the engine which appears to be unfixable.

The old argument was always that as long as he was doing his job and results were fine then no problem. Well one problem that does exist with it is when you’re doing well with a nice system and your DM is doing his job but because he’s getting poor ratings every game he gets upset about how he’s struggling with his form. I’ve had that on a few occasions and you’re just laughing really tbh.

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13 hours ago, gunnersaur said:

Great Article man ... Agree with all of it a lot needs to be coded better I find the transfer one a pain when I'm doing any save happens every time I do an arsenal save  someone always bids for lacazette who more often than not has a 55million value and they offer 27million just odd if I'm honest 

Thank You Yeah it's a nightmare , I noticed it too with Lacazette in my Arsenal save recently 

5 hours ago, Wasy said:

Just finished my first season and big agree with the Morale and contract thing. Fellas literally asking for new contracts in freaking 2020 when the expiration dates are 24/25 or something.  

Morale is a nightmare on this game, it's a challenge that you don't want to be managing when you want to be focusing on the core aspects of the game 

1 hour ago, Rhys Rockley said:

I find it very frustrating about ageing squads...like mentioned above teams often sign big players who are like 35 years old on 5 year contracts on ridiculous wages...although yes this CAN happen, it happens far too often. The top teams AI seems to be majorly flawed because of that in most saves if you play 10-15 years you can see big teams simply falling down the league because there players are old, awful stats and on long contracts...this has been an issue over many years

 

Also!!! Teams buying one of your star players and they play like 3 games with their new team. Again yes this can happen in real life if things don't work out, however again happens too often.

I feel the morale however makes the game more challenging and slightly more realistic. Lose 3 games and morale is low and you feel like you need to scrape a good result. I like that. 

 

 

Agree with all these points 

I do enjoy managing morale but when half of your squad is bitching and causing huge divisions in the squad over nothing it gets tedious 

38 minutes ago, Ian said:

Some good points Adam. One of the problems is the fact the game has to be playable on nearly every mobile device which means it can never be too in depth. Even this years game is a touch slower than last years, it’s not much but it’s noticeable on my iPhone SE and yet most wouldn’t say the two games changed that much really.

It seems they are trying to get this game as close to the full game as they can which is why they seem to want to increase all the media stuff but the thing is it’s almost like you can either have everything but nothing done too well as the game would be too big and slow or you could pick certain elements to focus on. Personally I’d prefer it if they just ditched the whole player personality aspect of the game and practically all of the media stuff and just focused on the tactic and squad building.

Even on the full game I could never be arsed about press conferences and team talks, just never has and never will interest me so I’d just send my assistant. I always laugh when people argue for realism when it comes to those like you can in any way replicate communicating with your players though your device.

Even if players have different personalities and it’s more varied like it might be on the full game you can bet after a while you’ll get to know exactly what the game wants for each player type I’m sure so it’ll be boring or it could be more random but then you’d just be guessing and hoping so just doesn’t interest me.

So in all most of the stuff you say I agree with but I just don’t see them being fixed or improved much unfortunately.

I understand the game must be playable on a range of mobile devices which is why the game must have a more arcade style even though for a mobile game it is quite in depth 

I enjoy the personality expect and needing to squad rotate to keep morale up and rotate due to fitness issues but I agree I don't like any of the media side of the game and never did during playing the full version , a half time team talk would be a okay idea maybe it a player was rated a 4/5 and needed a bit motivation BUT for the sake of the game being mobile friendly just having the option to hook him off and use a sub is a good option to have 

I used to always send my assistant to press as I agree the enjoyment I get through management games is squad managing and building , tactics and transfers which are the vital parts of the game 

Maybe an idea on future progress for FMM versions would be to strip the game back to basics and FOCUS SOLELY ON tactics , transfers and squad building like the old days of FM , focus only on these and get them nailed on perfect instead of SI trying to get all fancy and creating a bug filled game 

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12 minutes ago, Ian said:

Another thing that makes a mockery of the whole player happiness aspect of the game is the poor ratings for DM’s.

The EME is a modified version of the engine used on the full game about 15 or so years ago and that problems existed on those games where the DM would just get a lower rating than he should. It’s just a major flaw in the engine which appears to be unfixable.

The old argument was always that as long as he was doing his job and results were fine then no problem. Well one problem that does exist with it is when you’re doing well with a nice system and your DM is doing his job but because he’s getting poor ratings every game he gets upset about how he’s struggling with his form. I’ve had that on a few occasions and you’re just laughing really tbh.

@Ian Such a good point! I've noticed too that getting a system on the game with 2 DMS in say a deep compact 4-2-3-1 system is very challenging and more often than not use a BPD or a Libero to try get a player in the area between the defence and midfield just to have some cover there , it's often been noted people that the anchor man role is pretty flawed in game too , by 15 years ago im guessing your refering to around FM05 or FM06 , it's a shame that a game that has been out for around 15 years or more is not able to be a lot better than it actually is regarding bugs and flaws 

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Excellent points mate! 

The transfer low balling is such a pain, and squads have always been built horrendously by the AI. How often will you find they have 5+ goalkeepers or something silly. 

Morale is the big one for me though as that's sucked the life out the game to me, especially as it does heavily impact performance. Sure it's realistic but it goes against the pick up and play nature of the game. If I'm jumping in for a match here and a match there how am I meant to remember every detail of the previous playing session of who played when or how well. 

The biggest frustration for me however from the AI has to be the league rubber banding as it's predictable, feels limiting and basically makes half of most season a chore. I can go start until January undefeated or at least doing well but I know 90% of the time around March the wheels will fall off until the AI have caught up. Once they catch up you'll amazingly find form or have a little drama in the race. 

It just makes me feel like the game has decided to hold me back at a certain point, like I know everything I'm doing is working but at some point I know I'll have a period where it doesn't really matter what I do anymore. It makes me question the engine in general, but it's the inconsistency which killed FMM for me. I got into FMM as I loved squad building but making tactics especially, now I just don't see the point in making tactics. 

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· Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Ashez said:

Excellent points mate! 

The transfer low balling is such a pain, and squads have always been built horrendously by the AI. How often will you find they have 5+ goalkeepers or something silly. 

Morale is the big one for me though as that's sucked the life out the game to me, especially as it does heavily impact performance. Sure it's realistic but it goes against the pick up and play nature of the game. If I'm jumping in for a match here and a match there how am I meant to remember every detail of the previous playing session of who played when or how well. 

The biggest frustration for me however from the AI has to be the league rubber banding as it's predictable, feels limiting and basically makes half of most season a chore. I can go start until January undefeated or at least doing well but I know 90% of the time around March the wheels will fall off until the AI have caught up. Once they catch up you'll amazingly find form or have a little drama in the race. 

It just makes me feel like the game has decided to hold me back at a certain point, like I know everything I'm doing is working but at some point I know I'll have a period where it doesn't really matter what I do anymore. It makes me question the engine in general, but it's the inconsistency which killed FMM for me. I got into FMM as I loved squad building but making tactics especially, now I just don't see the point in making tactics. 

 FMM is so hit and miss , sometimes you think this is brilliant and others it can really be a chore going from season to season , yeah your right no matter what there's always an inevitable slump in form around either before January or after , you always know a big drop in form is around the corner. 

The reason the game never improves is because there's no competition for SI so they could make a data update just for transfers as the only feature of the next game and people would still pay £8/£9 for a game with the same bugs and errors in. 

We are all lunatics for keep buying it but will keep buying it as there's unfortunately no other quality alternative , they at SI focus all their efforts on the full game and the FMM series is never improved always just given a few new gimmicks here and there which aren't needed , what is needed is getting the current things in game perfect instead of all these new not really needed features year upon year 

Edited by AdamNufc

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7 hours ago, AdamNufc said:

I enjoy the personality expect and needing to squad rotate to keep morale up and rotate due to fitness issues

The thing about rotating to keep players happy is that it’s pointless if it’s not done well. For example, you get a player kicking off over lack of game time so if you decide you’re going to tell him you’ll play him you have to otherwise he’ll probably demand a transfer. The thing is the game doesn’t seem to take minutes played into the equation but only games played so if you just sub this player on in the last minute for a few games in a row he’ll usually be happy. I’ve been doing TT’s so wanted to keep all three subs for the strikers and have put unhappy players of all position on up front late on in games as replacements for this reason.

Even science can’t agree on player fitness or maybe some managers just ignore it as Klopp for example would expect players to produce quite a lot before he would think they’re in this red zone I keep hearing about. Other managers rotate more and with success also so we don’t know what is best but the game can only have one system for that. I don’t think you could actually get the game time that Liverpool players have produced recently whilst maintaining results on this years game, you could maybe get the games played but not the actual minutes played. So if I’m a Klopp fanboy which I’m not but say I am then I might want to mimic Klopp on this game and to my utter disappointment I just wouldn’t be able to. If you’ve seen stuff on the forum about this subject from last March and didn’t play the game at that time then you have to understand that Si messed up on an update and it was utterly ridiculous. You had to make substitutions in the first half as an example which is why I just about accept the current state of player conditioning.

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11 minutes ago, Ian said:

If you’ve seen stuff on the forum about this subject from last March and didn’t play the game at that time then you have to understand that Si messed up on an update and it was utterly ridiculous. You had to make substitutions in the first half as an example which is why I just about accept the current state of player conditioning.

I've played FM , FMH and FMM for over a decade. If your referring to the huge fitness debacle of last year where it was fine up until the winter patch Feb/March time and the fitness sent to pot , players were in orange/red really low fitness at around the 40 minute mark and that would be like a lot of your first 11 too 

Player conditioning this year I don't think is too bad , I like the idea you've got to rotate sometimes for fitness as at least thats a bit realistic and not too arcadey where you could play your whole first 11 for 38 games straight for instance 

I've read some stuff on forum over the last few weeks since I joined and before when I used to read as a guest and I notice a lot of people on here often have the same issues with the game and similar ones to mine 

Has anyone ever from SI came onto these forums and took any advice actually on board? 🤔 @Ian

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6 hours ago, AdamNufc said:

Has anyone ever from SI came onto these forums and took any advice actually on board? 🤔

They're always on here in the Bug List thread for a couple of months after launch. They generally fix the most serious bugs people post in there and at least listen to what people are saying - but of course there are long standing issues (like the DM ratings) that have never been improved. So they listen, but not about everything. That said, I'm happy that they show up at all and are happy to engage with us. They don't have to do that. 

There's no doubt that there's a LOT of things they could improve to give us a more stable game etc, but I give them more benefit of the doubt than most people do, because I have a software development background. Trying to balance the tactics part of FMM must be nightmarishly complex, for eg:

Make a change to how the DM role works and not only do you have to worry about whether the change works for the DM role, you have to worry about how that impacts all of the other roles (does it mess up the CM line, or the CD line?), for ALL of the different instructions (maybe it works fine for Attacking, but not if you work the ball into the box, or maybe it doesn't work for counter attacking at all, etc), for ALL of the different formations (maybe it works fine in a 4 1 2 2 1, but the CMs don't get enough passes in a 3 3 2 1 1 on Attacking mode with Try through balls turned on, etc etc). You get the drift. Super complicated. Of course that's what we pay them for, so we should expect a reasonable job, but it's ain't straight forward.

There's plenty of other stuff I think they should do better on, including the transfers etc. And plenty of things that don't improve. I'd definitely be happy for them to release FMM21 with no new features at all, but the existing things tightened up. But this is software and the average user will expect new features or they won't pay for it.

Anyway, 🤞 for a better version next year!

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Interesting so many people have problems with Morale. I normally don't have any problems with it. Maybe because I'm set as a Motivational coach? If I'm winning a lot it takes care of itself. If not, then I'll praise players whose morale is not green every 3 weeks or so. Players don't have a negative reaction anymore, so there's no need to remember who you can't praise, they'll just be unaffected. The "in danger of becoming overconfident" message is pretty rare for me too. I dunno, I just don't have a problem with this part. 

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2 hours ago, Scratch said:

They're always on here in the Bug List thread for a couple of months after launch. They generally fix the most serious bugs people post in there and at least listen to what people are saying - but of course there are long standing issues (like the DM ratings) that have never been improved. So they listen, but not about everything. That said, I'm happy that they show up at all and are happy to engage with us. They don't have to do that. 

There's no doubt that there's a LOT of things they could improve to give us a more stable game etc, but I give them more benefit of the doubt than most people do, because I have a software development background. Trying to balance the tactics part of FMM must be nightmarishly complex, for eg:

Make a change to how the DM role works and not only do you have to worry about whether the change works for the DM role, you have to worry about how that impacts all of the other roles (does it mess up the CM line, or the CD line?), for ALL of the different instructions (maybe it works fine for Attacking, but not if you work the ball into the box, or maybe it doesn't work for counter attacking at all, etc), for ALL of the different formations (maybe it works fine in a 4 1 2 2 1, but the CMs don't get enough passes in a 3 3 2 1 1 on Attacking mode with Try through balls turned on, etc etc). You get the drift. Super complicated. Of course that's what we pay them for, so we should expect a reasonable job, but it's ain't straight forward.

There's plenty of other stuff I think they should do better on, including the transfers etc. And plenty of things that don't improve. I'd definitely be happy for them to release FMM21 with no new features at all, but the existing things tightened up. But this is software and the average user will expect new features or they won't pay for it.

Anyway, 🤞 for a better version next year!

I get what you mean it must be very difficult to code certain things but that is what they are being paid to do , I could understand the odd game being poor but when for years similar issues have been happening it gets a bit bad to be honest. 

Yeah I agree I'd take no new features and a more solid game next year with things fixed and made to work perfectly but just got to see 

 

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Screenshot_20200728-114652.thumb.jpg.ac351f0b4defaeb19b7029630b373f9d.jpg

Further evidence to why the AI cannot get tactics right in game at all , I'm playing Wycombe in the fa cup with my arsenal side and they line up with a striker playing left back and a attacking midfielder playing as a DM all while they have a fully fit left back and a fully fit central midfielder on the bench 😂😂😂

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1 minute ago, AdamNufc said:

Screenshot_20200728-114652.thumb.jpg.ac351f0b4defaeb19b7029630b373f9d.jpg

Further evidence to why the AI cannot get tactics right in game at all , I'm playing Wycombe in the fa cup with my arsenal side and they line up with a striker playing left back and a attacking midfielder playing as a DM all while they have a fully fit left back and a fully fit central midfielder on the bench 😂😂😂

Yeah, that's the sort of stuff they absolutely have no excuse for, especially as it's been like that for years. 

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4 minutes ago, AdamNufc said:

Screenshot_20200728-114652.thumb.jpg.ac351f0b4defaeb19b7029630b373f9d.jpg

Further evidence to why the AI cannot get tactics right in game at all , I'm playing Wycombe in the fa cup with my arsenal side and they line up with a striker playing left back and a attacking midfielder playing as a DM all while they have a fully fit left back and a fully fit central midfielder on the bench 😂😂😂

This is what I was talking about in your last article. I don’t understand the obsession with “plug and play” tactics when stuff like this is in the game (it happens in 90% of matches).

You adjust in relation to the AI tactics and it’s so easy to exploit.

Nice work again.

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1 minute ago, samhardy said:

This is what I was talking about in your last article. I don’t understand the obsession with “plug and play” tactics when stuff like this is in the game (it happens in 90% of matches).

You adjust in relation to the AI tactics and it’s so easy to exploit.

Nice work again.

Thanks @samhardy , the AI is useless which is a shame as it would be so much more fun if it was slightly more realistic to the point where a striker wasn't playing bloody left back , it's a shame that the game is going backwards but with no real competition out there SI can just relax and still the game will sell. 

I do not want all new features ( 75 percent of which usually aren't needed) in the next game , I just want the basic things that have been crap for years to get fixed 

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When talking about bids this bid from Barcelona was the most unlogical and irritating I've encountered,10m for a player worth 111M 😫

Screenshot_20200726-001719.png

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12 hours ago, Scratch said:

Interesting so many people have problems with Morale. I normally don't have any problems with it. Maybe because I'm set as a Motivational coach? If I'm winning a lot it takes care of itself. If not, then I'll praise players whose morale is not green every 3 weeks or so. Players don't have a negative reaction anymore, so there's no need to remember who you can't praise, they'll just be unaffected. The "in danger of becoming overconfident" message is pretty rare for me too. I dunno, I just don't have a problem with this part. 

Agree - it was one of the first things I "noticed" to "fix" when i came back to FMM (last season) - my team got in a funk, so I only played happy guys and it got better. But since then, I don't look at it at all! I generally take care of everything else and that seems to look after the morale fine (or it just doesn't matter that much if someone has a bit of a wobble).

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Yeah it is a bit irraiting when you have some of your loan players who play 1 great season and the big clubs come in with a stupid amount of money, does need new changes to the who system 

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