Help Side to Side Passing

[lcutini32]

Anyone else noticed their team consistently choosing to pass sideways rather than forwards on this edition? No matter what I try I can’t get my team to play vertically, just constant balls to the wingbacks who play meaningless crosses. Current tactic below

[KyleJNichol]

Seems like your team might missing a couple of things like creatively, passing and decision making. 
 

When I’m looking at signing players I look for good teamwork and decision (13+ or higher) as two key stats then, I’ll add other stats required for the positions I’m looking for. 
 

Might worth looking at your team report and seeing what the negatives are? 
 

Another thing I recently learnt is make sure you’re building a good relationship between all your players, it will help them perform better as a team. Only downside is you get this from playing games so throw in a load of friendlies in pre season

[DanEnglish]

Great opening question.

I think the problem is 100% about your formation - what is happening is that (a) your FBs are your main players with space, so are being passed to more often, plus (b) you're urging your players to 'dribble more', so your FBs are dribbling up the pitch, and then getting into crossing positions - edit: plus your central attacking players are not playing through balls nor dribbling past the last defender for 1:1 opportunities.
 

Analysis:

Just loaded a new save as Man Utd (who have decently creative players), setup your 4312 formation, and played some friendlies. As @lucutini said - a lot of the play is going to the full backs who put in (mostly useless) crosses.

Friendly #1 vs a 5221

As the opposition plays with WBs, 4 MCs/AMCs and no wide attackers, we would expect a crowded center, with more space & time for our FBs.

 

Move 1:

Spoiler

Overall you can see why the ball is going to the FBs, and why they are dribbling forward into crossing positions.

 

Move 2:

Spoiler

Again a similar situation with the FBs having space and dribbling forward to cross.

 

Friendly #2 vs a 442 

As the opposition plays with only 2 MCs and 2 Wingers, we would expect our FBs to be marked, with more space & time for our 4 MCs/AMC.

Move 3:

Spoiler

Possession gets recycled centrally (as the FBs are marked) - but with no penetration, no through balls, as it's crowded and not much space.
 

Move 4:

Spoiler

Again - even against a 442 - your FBs can still dribble forward to cross, instead of playing it inside into the space for your MCs/AMC
 

 

Suggestions

If you keep this formation:

• put a passing focus on 'centre'.
• turn off 'dribble more' and potentially turn on more 'through balls'
• I'd also be tempted to change your AMC to an Advanced Playmaker (why? APs play further forward than an AM, and move around for more space).
• If you want your MCL and MCR to be more involved in play, put one as a B2B midfielder and see how they drift wider and further forward to connect play - maybe you'll like it, maybe not.
• Maybe change your STs roles to create more opportunities / space for through balls behind the defence - e.g. a Poacher and a DLF? I am not sure about this.

If you want to change formations

• <then this is up to you!>

What do you think / does this help?

Edited February 18, 2022 by DanEnglish

[Victor77]

1 hour ago, DanEnglish said:

Great opening question.

I think the problem is 100% about your formation - what is happening is that (a) your FBs are your main players with space, so are being passed to more often, plus (b) you're urging your players to 'dribble more', so your FBs are dribbling up the pitch, and then getting into crossing positions - edit: plus your central attacking players are not playing through balls nor dribbling past the last defender for 1:1 opportunities.
 

Analysis:

Just loaded a new save as Man Utd (who have decently creative players), setup your 4312 formation, and played some friendlies. As @lucutini said - a lot of the play is going to the full backs who put in (mostly useless) crosses.

Friendly #1 vs a 5221

As the opposition plays with WBs, 4 MCs/AMCs and no wide attackers, we would expect a crowded center, with more space & time for our FBs.

 

Move 1:

  Hide contents

Overall you can see why the ball is going to the FBs, and why they are dribbling forward into crossing positions.

 

Move 2:

  Hide contents

Again a similar situation with the FBs having space and dribbling forward to cross.

 

Friendly #2 vs a 442 

As the opposition plays with only 2 MCs and 2 Wingers, we would expect our FBs to be marked, with more space & time for our 4 MCs/AMC.

Move 3:

  Hide contents

Possession gets recycled centrally (as the FBs are marked) - but with no penetration, no through balls, as it's crowded and not much space.
 

Move 4:

  Hide contents

Again - even against a 442 - your FBs can still dribble forward to cross, instead of playing it inside into the space for your MCs/AMC
 

 

Suggestions

If you keep this formation:

• put a passing focus on 'centre'.
• turn off 'dribble more' and potentially turn on more 'through balls'
• I'd also be tempted to change your AMC to an Advanced Playmaker (why? APs play further forward than an AM, and move around for more space).
• If you want your MCL and MCR to be more involved in play, put one as a B2B midfielder and see how they drift wider and further forward to connect play - maybe you'll like it, maybe not.
• Maybe change your STs roles to create more opportunities / space for through balls behind the defence - e.g. a Poacher and a DLF? I am not sure about this.

If you want to change formations

• <then this is up to you!>

What do you think / does this help?

I think DLF would suite the formation..... Nice write up mate 👍

[DanEnglish]

14 minutes ago, Victor77 said:

I think DLF would suite the formation..... Nice write up mate 👍

To take that suggestion even further, I may test this with the DLF dropped into the AMC position - making a Christmas Tree 4321 formation.

I wonder if this would give more space + penetration in those central advanced positions ... ?

[Victor77]

16 minutes ago, DanEnglish said:

To take that suggestion even further, I may test this with the DLF dropped into the AMC position - making a Christmas Tree 4321 formation.

I wonder if this would give more space + penetration in those central advanced positions ... ?

It should 

[Abinzi]

1 hour ago, DanEnglish said:

Great opening question.

I think the problem is 100% about your formation - what is happening is that (a) your FBs are your main players with space, so are being passed to more often, plus (b) you're urging your players to 'dribble more', so your FBs are dribbling up the pitch, and then getting into crossing positions - edit: plus your central attacking players are not playing through balls nor dribbling past the last defender for 1:1 opportunities.
 

Analysis:

Just loaded a new save as Man Utd (who have decently creative players), setup your 4312 formation, and played some friendlies. As @lucutini said - a lot of the play is going to the full backs who put in (mostly useless) crosses.

Friendly #1 vs a 5221

As the opposition plays with WBs, 4 MCs/AMCs and no wide attackers, we would expect a crowded center, with more space & time for our FBs.

 

Move 1:

  Hide contents

Overall you can see why the ball is going to the FBs, and why they are dribbling forward into crossing positions.

 

Move 2:

  Hide contents

Again a similar situation with the FBs having space and dribbling forward to cross.

 

Friendly #2 vs a 442 

As the opposition plays with only 2 MCs and 2 Wingers, we would expect our FBs to be marked, with more space & time for our 4 MCs/AMC.

Move 3:

  Hide contents

Possession gets recycled centrally (as the FBs are marked) - but with no penetration, no through balls, as it's crowded and not much space.
 

Move 4:

  Hide contents

Again - even against a 442 - your FBs can still dribble forward to cross, instead of playing it inside into the space for your MCs/AMC
 

 

Suggestions

If you keep this formation:

• put a passing focus on 'centre'.
• turn off 'dribble more' and potentially turn on more 'through balls'
• I'd also be tempted to change your AMC to an Advanced Playmaker (why? APs play further forward than an AM, and move around for more space).
• If you want your MCL and MCR to be more involved in play, put one as a B2B midfielder and see how they drift wider and further forward to connect play - maybe you'll like it, maybe not.
• Maybe change your STs roles to create more opportunities / space for through balls behind the defence - e.g. a Poacher and a DLF? I am not sure about this.

If you want to change formations

• <then this is up to you!>

What do you think / does this help?

Nice, thanks!

[lcutini32]

@DanEnglish thank you for such a detailed response! When I get a chance later today (Canada time) I’ll give your suggestions a go and let you know how I get on

[DanEnglish]

3 minutes ago, lcutini32 said:

@DanEnglish thank you for such a detailed response! When I get a chance later today (Canada time) I’ll give your suggestions a go and let you know how I get on

Great! I tried a 'center' focus and 'short' passing - that helped A LOT to make most of the highlights play down the middle (less on the flanks). However it still wasn't very penetrative.

Less successful tweaks included:

• Even with 'through balls' switched on and tested 'wide' width, there still weren't many chances made.
• A B2B midfielder offers something different (he drifts wider, often picks up the ball from the FB), but not necessarily that useful on it's own.
• I tried a 4132 (moving the DLP back to the DMC position + moving the AMC back to the MC position in an AP role) - but that didn't help.
• I tried a 433 (moving the AMC into a central ST position in a DLF / CF role), but that also didn't help much.

Something useful which was nice to watch was a 4312, but with two IWBs (inverted WBs) and two B2B midfielders, with the central MC in a normal MC role (not DLP), and the AMC player in an AP role (so 2xIWBs, 2xB2Bs, 1xMC, 1xAP) - that provided a lot of central passing moves, with lots of passing options, but again not much penetration / few clear cut chances / few through balls behind the defence.

The only other tweak I'd suggest is having a 'normal' defensive line (not 'high')' - if you have fast forwards. This gives them more space to attack behind the opposition defense. Of course you'd only want to do this if you have 'more through balls' selected.  

Hope you have some fun playing around with this - and hope you find something that works for you & your team!

[Victor77]

24 minutes ago, DanEnglish said:

Great! I tried a 'center' focus and 'short' passing - that helped A LOT to make most of the highlights play down the middle (less on the flanks). However it still wasn't very penetrative.

Less successful tweaks included:

• Even with 'through balls' switched on and tested 'wide' width, there still weren't many chances made.
• A B2B midfielder offers something different (he drifts wider, often picks up the ball from the FB), but not necessarily that useful on it's own.
• I tried a 4132 (moving the DLP back to the DMC position + moving the AMC back to the MC position in an AP role) - but that didn't help.
• I tried a 433 (moving the AMC into a central ST position in a DLF / CF role), but that also didn't help much.

Something useful which was nice to watch was a 4312, but with two IWBs (inverted WBs) and two B2B midfielders, with the central MC in a normal MC role (not DLP), and the AMC player in an AP role (so 2xIWBs, 2xB2Bs, 1xMC, 1xAP) - that provided a lot of central passing moves, with lots of passing options, but again not much penetration / few clear cut chances / few through balls behind the defence.

The only other tweak I'd suggest is having a 'normal' defensive line (not 'high')' - if you have fast forwards. This gives them more space to attack behind the opposition defense. Of course you'd only want to do this if you have 'more through balls' selected.  

Hope you have some fun playing around with this - and hope you find something that works for you & your team!

That means a pocher would be more effective or what do you think 

[lcutini32]

@DanEnglish @Victor77 I had time to try these changes and basically came to the same conclusions, while they do improve midfield play and verticality to some degree, there is very little penetration or line breaking runs forward for through balls. Thinking maybe it’s just a formation that doesn’t translate well in the game (or maybe real life, see Marco Rose’s current struggles at Dortmund). While the midfield is much better at getting the ball forward, they seem to run into a wall somewhere around the beginning of the final third, see the screenshots showing how the strikers are marked, and even when the DLF receives a pass he has no forward options 

Edit: also wanted to add that I used the initial set up from the first post with great success across multiple saves last year, but maybe some tweaks to the ME have affected it 

Edited February 19, 2022 by lcutini32

[Victor77]

14 hours ago, lcutini32 said:

@DanEnglish @Victor77 I had time to try these changes and basically came to the same conclusions, while they do improve midfield play and verticality to some degree, there is very little penetration or line breaking runs forward for through balls. Thinking maybe it’s just a formation that doesn’t translate well in the game (or maybe real life, see Marco Rose’s current struggles at Dortmund). While the midfield is much better at getting the ball forward, they seem to run into a wall somewhere around the beginning of the final third, see the screenshots showing how the strikers are marked, and even when the DLF receives a pass he has no forward options 

Edit: also wanted to add that I used the initial set up from the first post with great success across multiple saves last year, but maybe some tweaks to the ME have affected it 

Possibly

[Abinzi]

On 18/02/2022 at 21:39, DanEnglish said:

Great! I tried a 'center' focus and 'short' passing - that helped A LOT to make most of the highlights play down the middle (less on the flanks). However it still wasn't very penetrative.

Less successful tweaks included:

• Even with 'through balls' switched on and tested 'wide' width, there still weren't many chances made.
• A B2B midfielder offers something different (he drifts wider, often picks up the ball from the FB), but not necessarily that useful on it's own.
• I tried a 4132 (moving the DLP back to the DMC position + moving the AMC back to the MC position in an AP role) - but that didn't help.
• I tried a 433 (moving the AMC into a central ST position in a DLF / CF role), but that also didn't help much.

Something useful which was nice to watch was a 4312, but with two IWBs (inverted WBs) and two B2B midfielders, with the central MC in a normal MC role (not DLP), and the AMC player in an AP role (so 2xIWBs, 2xB2Bs, 1xMC, 1xAP) - that provided a lot of central passing moves, with lots of passing options, but again not much penetration / few clear cut chances / few through balls behind the defence.

The only other tweak I'd suggest is having a 'normal' defensive line (not 'high')' - if you have fast forwards. This gives them more space to attack behind the opposition defense. Of course you'd only want to do this if you have 'more through balls' selected.  

Hope you have some fun playing around with this - and hope you find something that works for you & your team!

Whats Clarence Seedorf role in Ancelotti 4312 system?

Thanks.

[KyleJNichol]

Such a good tactical analysis @DanEnglish

[Chelseaplchamps2022]

13 hours ago, Abinzi said:

Whats Clarence Seedorf role in Ancelotti 4312 system?

Thanks.

It's not in the mobile version, but defo Mezzala. For FMM probably a RP.

[DanEnglish]

On 19/02/2022 at 08:42, lcutini32 said:

while they do improve midfield play and verticality to some degree, there is very little penetration or line breaking runs forward for through balls.

Hi @lcutini32 - partly in response to this thread you started, I‘ve written up a guide (?) to creating chances which you may like.

You can see it <here> ... Let me know  what you think 🙂