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This will probably be my last post before FM23 is dropped, just wanted to put out one last rant. 

     The game is broken in the sense that when you keep possession, it doesn't lead to goals at all. Also how is that when you go overload and attack you make less passes but control and balanced give you more passes? City sends every freaking man that they can upfront and make more than 500 passes in real life but when I do so in game I hardly make 200 passes.

Secondly losing possession to teams like Newcastle, Watford can be so annoying considering they are defending yet make passes close to yours, no logic is put into the game. I know you can put central midfielder role but they offer little to none when going upfront, just passes that leads to nothing. I know sometimes possession leads to no goals like Barca Inter this past UCL match but at least you should create chances from it, your team won't create up to ten shots with the possession. This isn't the same for the PC version, SI and Sega are doing us dirty on the mobile version of FM. 

Considering it'll be the same thing that will be given to us in FMM 23 it sucks 

Edited by Uncleseekx
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Hi @Uncleseekx,

You’ve wrote an interesting post - and I think there’s a few misunderstandings which may be causing some problems.

Question #1:
Attacking mentality = more passes = more goals … ?

On 09/10/2022 at 04:13, Uncleseekx said:

The game is broken in the sense that when you keep possession, it doesn't lead to goals at all. Also how is that when you go overload and attack you make less passes but control and balanced give you more passes?

I think this is very realistic, and so is the first misunderstanding in your post. Even the FM official blog states this as one of their top 10 misconceptions <here>

092D984C-6558-4255-9CFD-D724298FCB49.thumb.jpeg.fecc5a88d82318dd1a200c35e5f7bc42.jpeg

So what? 

More attacking / overload mentalities =

  • your players will push forward + take MORE risks.
  • often matches well with a fast tempo, direct passing.
  • this fits well with (a) clearly superior teams, (b) fast / direct styles of play, (c) playing to a TM or attacking the flanks 1990’s Man Utd / Ferguson or 1990’s Newcastle / Keegan style.

More defensive / cautious mentalities

  • your players will stick more to your original formation + take LESS risks.
  • often matches well with a slow tempo, short passing.
  • this fits well with (a) clearly weaker teams, (b) slow / patient play, (c) playing a short passing possession game - like a 2000’s Arsenal / Wenger style or 2000’s Swansea style. 

Personally I love to play a “sterile possession” game when I have a narrow lead - slow passing, slow tempo, 41410 formation, just to kill off the game with high possession, even if I create no more chances 🙂 and win 1:0. More defensive = MORE possession.

I won a (REAL LIFE!) FM tournament final with an fast direct attacking 424 - I didn’t care about possession at that point (was losing 1:0 😞). More attacking = LESS possession.

26D6955C-732D-47AC-B4D1-54304EAF09B4.thumb.jpeg.cd832839b0cc884d9e1958aeaa3d3351.jpeg

In-Game - if you load up Man City, you can see all three of their RECOMMENDED tactics involve CONTROL mentality (not attacking / overload). 
 

 

Answer #1:
Attacking / Overload mentality = LESS passes!

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Question 2:
What do Man City do?

On 09/10/2022 at 04:13, Uncleseekx said:

City sends every freaking man that they can upfront and make more than 500 passes in real life but when I do so in game I hardly make 200 passes.

Assumption - I hope you meant Man City!

There was a great article in “the Athletic” this week about Man City’s style with Haaland. It shows HOW they make lots of passes + DON’T send everyone up-front.

63952C8D-5023-4C41-AEE0-61A87A063486.thumb.jpeg.605aed12c0dba0be22cc097f0c0197d8.jpeg

It starts by quoting Opta on how Haaland’s goal was the result of 21 passes - a joint record for this season…

6525735D-D3A3-4D68-B234-3A1A7D8A5B55.thumb.jpeg.185c4f4b882ec0f71f13abca87177516.jpeg

 
Then it showed the goal’s build up play … with a lot of the passes between the more defensive players. Cautious. Patient. 

5EA383A0-D33B-4C15-81BC-E5B7C467DF31.thumb.jpeg.50028ad32716cc86581d0cc9bb2090f0.jpeg

Then, they passed forward down a flank, into the final third + created the chance for Haaland.

How many Man City players are in the photo? Six. Only FOUR in the box. That’s not sending everyone forward… 

… That’s four defenders (out of picture), two midfielders (outside the box) and four attackers. Not everyone. 

DA72F3DD-0E50-45C2-937F-4DC69517265E.thumb.png.29771cb9e0e5204b7d04d1243b56422b.png

Then Haaland shot + scored. 

2D081C7C-2764-493B-88FC-45B4F4BEFBDF.thumb.png.abadf410fbfd0b1525e7b46aed15e7e0.png


Interesting isn’t it. Man City played short, patient, possession football … then in the final third, ran at the defenders and played the ball into their striker. 
 

Answer 2:
Man City play short, patient, possession football - with both “run at defense” + “play through ball” final third instructions! 

PS. And they don’t send everyone upfront!

 
Thoughts? 🙂 

Edited by DanEnglish
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1 hour ago, DanEnglish said:

Hi @Uncleseekx,

You’ve wrote an interesting post - and I think there’s a few misunderstandings which may be causing some problems.

Question #1:
Attacking mentality = more passes = more goals … ?

I think this is very realistic, and so is the first misunderstanding in your post. Even the FM official blog states this as one of their top 10 misconceptions <here>

092D984C-6558-4255-9CFD-D724298FCB49.thumb.jpeg.fecc5a88d82318dd1a200c35e5f7bc42.jpeg

So what? 

More attacking / overload mentalities =

  • your players will push forward + take MORE risks.
  • often matches well with a fast tempo, direct passing.
  • this fits well with (a) clearly superior teams, (b) fast / direct styles of play, (c) playing to a TM or attacking the flanks 1990’s Man Utd / Ferguson or 1990’s Newcastle / Keegan style.

More defensive / cautious mentalities

  • your players will stick more to your original formation + take LESS risks.
  • often matches well with a slow tempo, short passing.
  • this fits well with (a) clearly weaker teams, (b) slow / patient play, (c) playing a short passing possession game - like a 2000’s Arsenal / Wenger style or 2000’s Swansea style. 

Personally I love to play a “sterile possession” game when I have a narrow lead - slow passing, slow tempo, 41410 formation, just to kill off the game with high possession, even if I create no more chances 🙂 and win 1:0. More defensive = MORE possession.

I won a (REAL LIFE!) FM tournament final with an fast direct attacking 424 - I didn’t care about possession at that point (was losing 1:0 😞). More attacking = LESS possession.

26D6955C-732D-47AC-B4D1-54304EAF09B4.thumb.jpeg.cd832839b0cc884d9e1958aeaa3d3351.jpeg

In-Game - if you load up Man City, you can see all three of their RECOMMENDED tactics involve CONTROL mentality (not attacking / overload). 
 

 

Answer #1:
Attacking / Overload mentality = LESS passes!

Obviously I'll be using an attacking tactic for me to put these out but the fact that I lose possession to a Steve Bruce led Newcastle with his demonic 5-3-2 that employs there CM's just doesn't sit right with me😄

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1 hour ago, DanEnglish said:

Hi @Uncleseekx,

You’ve wrote an interesting post - and I think there’s a few misunderstandings which may be causing some problems.

Question #1:
Attacking mentality = more passes = more goals … ?

I think this is very realistic, and so is the first misunderstanding in your post. Even the FM official blog states this as one of their top 10 misconceptions <here>

092D984C-6558-4255-9CFD-D724298FCB49.thumb.jpeg.fecc5a88d82318dd1a200c35e5f7bc42.jpeg

So what? 

More attacking / overload mentalities =

  • your players will push forward + take MORE risks.
  • often matches well with a fast tempo, direct passing.
  • this fits well with (a) clearly superior teams, (b) fast / direct styles of play, (c) playing to a TM or attacking the flanks 1990’s Man Utd / Ferguson or 1990’s Newcastle / Keegan style.

More defensive / cautious mentalities

  • your players will stick more to your original formation + take LESS risks.
  • often matches well with a slow tempo, short passing.
  • this fits well with (a) clearly weaker teams, (b) slow / patient play, (c) playing a short passing possession game - like a 2000’s Arsenal / Wenger style or 2000’s Swansea style. 

Personally I love to play a “sterile possession” game when I have a narrow lead - slow passing, slow tempo, 41410 formation, just to kill off the game with high possession, even if I create no more chances 🙂 and win 1:0. More defensive = MORE possession.

I won a (REAL LIFE!) FM tournament final with an fast direct attacking 424 - I didn’t care about possession at that point (was losing 1:0 😞). More attacking = LESS possession.

26D6955C-732D-47AC-B4D1-54304EAF09B4.thumb.jpeg.cd832839b0cc884d9e1958aeaa3d3351.jpeg

In-Game - if you load up Man City, you can see all three of their RECOMMENDED tactics involve CONTROL mentality (not attacking / overload). 
 

 

Answer #1:
Attacking / Overload mentality = LESS passes!

And I play on control, even used the game's control possession tactic against Watford, Watford had more of the ball than me, HOW?!?!??? Simply no logic

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12 minutes ago, Uncleseekx said:

Obviously I'll be using an attacking tactic for me to put these out but the fact that I lose possession to a Steve Bruce led Newcastle with his demonic 5-3-2 that employs there CM's just doesn't sit right with me😄

Haha. You’re Man City right? Are you playing a high pressing game? What formation have you got.

Two situations which may be relevant for you. 

1. Are you playing a 41221 / 4231 / four at the back? (vs their back 5)

  • This seems particularly related to your Newcastle (and Watford?) games.
  • If so, I often have less possession vs a back 5 (532 / 51221 / 5221) than I normally would - as the opposition overload the center and dominate possession.
  • A real life example of this is England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 vs Netherlands 🇳🇱 in Euro ‘96, when England moved to a 532 / 352 and just dominated the Dutch, as it seemed we had central passing options everywhere!
  • You see this in kids football as well. There’s so many more passing options for a 532 team vs a 442 team, that with a bit of coaching, it’s easier for kids to pass the ball centrally in a 532 variant.

2. Are you playing a high-line AND high-press game?

  • If you’re NOT playing a high line + press, it’s possible the opposition’s defensive players are just passing the ball to each other, under little pressure, wasting time. Means they dominate the possession stats.
  • Also, if you’re playing a high-press, but a MEDIUM / NORMAL defensive line, then if they’re playing s 532 variant then the gap between your (high-press) attackers + (mid-line) defenders is BIGGER, meaning their central midfielders have LOTS of time and space on the ball, especially in they play on a more defensive mentality. Means they dominate possession also

So I’d say it’s perfectly natural to have less possession vs a back 5, especially if your defensive line + press has gaps.

🙂 

Edited by DanEnglish
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10 minutes ago, Uncleseekx said:

the fact that I lose possession to a Steve Bruce led Newcastle with his demonic 5-3-2 that employs there CM's just doesn't sit right with me😄

It’s a football manager sim and part of a football manager’s job is to recognize when the opposition is neutralizing your tactics, and then to adjust. You can’t just say “well I’m City and they’re Newcastle so I’m going to win.” You think Pep doesn’t make in game adjustments? I’m sorry but at this point you’re just moaning because you lost a few matches when you refuse to even really play the role of football manager. 

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1 hour ago, DanEnglish said:

Question 2:
What do Man City do?

Assumption - I hope you meant Man City!

There was a great article in “the Athletic” this week about Man City’s style with Haaland. It shows HOW they make lots of passes + DON’T send everyone up-front.

63952C8D-5023-4C41-AEE0-61A87A063486.thumb.jpeg.605aed12c0dba0be22cc097f0c0197d8.jpeg

It starts by quoting Opta on how Haaland’s goal was the result of 21 passes - a joint record for this season…

6525735D-D3A3-4D68-B234-3A1A7D8A5B55.thumb.jpeg.185c4f4b882ec0f71f13abca87177516.jpeg

 
Then it showed the goal’s build up play … with a lot of the passes between the more defensive players. Cautious. Patient. 

5EA383A0-D33B-4C15-81BC-E5B7C467DF31.thumb.jpeg.50028ad32716cc86581d0cc9bb2090f0.jpeg

Then, they passed forward down a flank, into the final third + created the chance for Haaland.

How many Man City players are in the photo? Six. Only FOUR in the box. That’s not sending everyone forward… 

… That’s four defenders (out of picture), two midfielders (outside the box) and four attackers. Not everyone. 

DA72F3DD-0E50-45C2-937F-4DC69517265E.thumb.png.29771cb9e0e5204b7d04d1243b56422b.png

Then Haaland shot + scored. 

2D081C7C-2764-493B-88FC-45B4F4BEFBDF.thumb.png.abadf410fbfd0b1525e7b46aed15e7e0.png


Interesting isn’t it. Man City played short, patient, possession football … then in the final third, ran at the defenders and played the ball into their striker. 
 

Answer 2:
Man City play short, patient, possession football - with both “run at defense” + “play through ball” final third instructions! 

PS. And they don’t send everyone upfront!

 
Thoughts? 🙂

What I meant by sending everyone upfront was sending at least 5 or more men in attack which when you do on this game doesn't generate passes. Have tried almost every format that I can think off that generates possession and chances but it doesn't work. I know it's only the mobile version of the game but with the money people pay for it and the amount of players they have, they should try and apply more logic to the game 

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4 minutes ago, DanEnglish said:

Haha. You’re Man City right? Are you playing a high pressing game? What formation have you got.

Two situations which may be relevant for you. 

1. Are you playing a 41221 / 4231 / four at the back? (vs their back 5)

  • This seems particularly related to your Newcastle (and Watford?) games.
  • If so, I often have less possession vs a back 5 (532 / 51221 / 5221) than I normally would - as the opposition overload the center and dominate possession.
  • A real life example of this is England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 vs Netherlands 🇳🇱 in Euro ‘96, when England moved to a 532 / 352 and just dominated the Dutch, as it seemed we had central passing options everywhere!
  • You see this in kids football as well. There’s so many more passing options for a 532 team vs a 442 team, that with a bit of coaching, it’s easier for kids to pass the ball centrally in a 532 variant.

2. Are you playing a high-line AND high-press game?

  • If you’re NOT playing a high line + press, it’s possible the opposition’s defensive players are just passing the ball to each other, under little pressure, wasting time. Means they dominate the possession stats.
  • Also, if you’re playing a high-press, but a MEDIUM / NORMAL defensive line, then if they’re playing s 532 variant then the gap between your (high-press) attackers + (mid-line) defenders is BIGGER, meaning their central midfielders have LOTS of time and space on the ball, especially in they play on a more defensive mentality. Means they dominate possession also

So I’d say it’s perfectly natural to have less possession vs a back 5, especially if your defensive line + press has gaps.

🙂 

High line definitely with a high press with Man United in a 4-1-2-2-1 system, got the players and all. Yeah a 5-3-2 might have the middle but going up against a 4-3-3, it should be at least even and considering they have no wing play bit wingbacks compared to my inverted wingers in Sacnho and Mahrez, I should make more passes coupled with the inverted wingbacks 

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6 minutes ago, lcutini32 said:

It’s a football manager sim and part of a football manager’s job is to recognize when the opposition is neutralizing your tactics, and then to adjust. You can’t just say “well I’m City and they’re Newcastle so I’m going to win.” You think Pep doesn’t make in game adjustments? I’m sorry but at this point you’re just moaning because you lost a few matches when you refuse to even really play the role of football manager. 

😄😄😄. Like I said above, I have successful tactics but I don't like how they win, making 250 something passes in game yet winning like 5-0. I'm just trying to say in game when you decide you want passes, it doesn't generate chances. Every possession based tactics on this forum doesn't yield chances. I'm not here crying cause I lost to Newcastle but just shedding light on the game's physics 

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20 minutes ago, Uncleseekx said:

High line definitely with a high press with Man United in a 4-1-2-2-1 system, got the players and all. Yeah a 5-3-2 might have the middle but going up against a 4-3-3, it should be at least even and considering they have no wing play bit wingbacks compared to my inverted wingers in Sacnho and Mahrez, I should make more passes coupled with the inverted wingbacks 

If you think about this from the opposition’s perspective …

  • their 532 in green
  • your 41221 in red
  • with red boxes for the marking / direct match ups

5610F70F-4892-4054-9E12-47427790350C.thumb.jpeg.c41eb85f53abab09b70382b5441db414.jpeg

The THICK white lines show the easy available short passes for the opposition, with the THIN white lines showing potential easy passes (depending on how you are pressing).

With a 41221, vs an opposition 532 (on a more defensive mentality) … they should DOMINATE you in terms of sterile possession!

  • Plus I hope you don’t have (lazy) Ronaldo up front as your central ST pressing! 
  • Vs a 532, I definitely prefer a 3142 or (if I’m pressing high) a 3412, as guys down on some of those passing lanes.
Edited by DanEnglish
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7 minutes ago, DanEnglish said:

If you think about this from the opposition’s perspective …

  • their 532 in green
  • your 41221 in red
  • with red boxes for the marking / direct match ups

5610F70F-4892-4054-9E12-47427790350C.thumb.jpeg.c41eb85f53abab09b70382b5441db414.jpeg

The THICK white lines show the easy available short passes for the opposition, with the THIN white lines showing potential easy passes (depending on how you are pressing).

With a 41221, vs an opposition 532 (on a more defensive mentality) … they should DOMINATE you in terms of sterile possession!

  • Plus I hope you don’t have (lazy) Ronaldo up front as your central ST pressing! 
  • Vs a 532, I definitely prefer a 3142 or (if I’m pressing high) a 3412, as guys down on some of those passing lanes.

Why did you do Ron dirty like that? 😏. Guess that's why their CB's make passes but like I said, in real life it shouldn't really be achievable against a team that's attacking you but I see the logic in game. Also I should just have it in mind it's a mobile and shouldn't expect much from it

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From your perspective, with a 41221 vs an opposition 532 …

B9473FB7-2150-4C76-AA90-CD51F3BB1700.thumb.jpeg.066e229639f9661dae08119a474c43c4.jpeg

Your easy passing lanes are much more limited.

  •  Their TM (on defensive mentalities) often drops back to mark your DMC. So your DMC is less available than normal.
  •  Your IWs / IFs are usually either marked by their WBs or their wide DCs.
  • so the easiest passing options are between your DC, FB and MC on each flank (see red lines). 
  • ⁉️ on attacking mentalities, they won’t recycle possession much, instead they’ll look to get the ball forward to your (marked) IF/IWs, or (marked) ST 😞 not much space / options for them to pass the ball on.

Question - does it now make sense WHY a defensive 532 would have more possession than an attacking 41221 … ?! 🙂 

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5 minutes ago, DanEnglish said:

From your perspective, with a 41221 vs an opposition 532 …

B9473FB7-2150-4C76-AA90-CD51F3BB1700.thumb.jpeg.066e229639f9661dae08119a474c43c4.jpeg

Your easy passing lanes are much more limited.

  •  Their TM (on defensive mentalities) often drops back to mark your DMC. So your DMC is less available than normal.
  •  Your IWs / IFs are usually either marked by their WBs or their wide DCs.
  • so the easiest passing options are between your DC, FB and MC on each flank (see red lines). 
  • ⁉️ on attacking mentalities, they won’t recycle possession much, instead they’ll look to get the ball forward to your (marked) IF/IWs, or (marked) ST 😞 not much space / options for them to pass the ball on.

Question - does it now make sense WHY a defensive 532 would have more possession than an attacking 41221 … ?! 🙂 

In game, I guess so but in real life, nope

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20 minutes ago, Uncleseekx said:

In game, I guess so but in real life, nope

😮😮😮

What would you do in real life then? 

In real life, typically in the EPL, from a stronger team (e.g. Liverpool), I’d expect to see full backs pushed higher up (DWs!), and your IWs/IFs pushed up against the opposition’s wide DCs (not a perfect role in FMM, would be STs!)…

In a 3412 / 21412 - instead of 3 players closing down (1 ST + 2MCs) the oppositions central 6, now you’d have 5 players closing down their 6 👍 

7CE0F7AD-FB2E-42D0-AED2-05394E3D3D0F.thumb.jpeg.12613ea93ec822aa7b9ccc2c338179b2.jpeg

This isn’t a perfect representation of reality, as in real life they’d switch between pressing on each side / asymmetrical - which we can’t setup in FMM, but that’s not that big of a problem.

So as long as you don’t play with a SS, then it would leave the opposition with pretty weak passing lanes (white lines) , where either the opposition would play it long, or puts a lot of pressure in their central DC.

That’s what I’d expect to see (as an example) in real life - from a superior team.

What would you expect to see? 🙂 

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35 minutes ago, DanEnglish said:

😮😮😮

What would you do in real life then? 

In real life, typically in the EPL, from a stronger team (e.g. Liverpool), I’d expect to see full backs pushed higher up (DWs!), and your IWs/IFs pushed up against the opposition’s wide DCs (not a perfect role in FMM, would be STs!)…

In a 3412 / 21412 - instead of 3 players closing down (1 ST + 2MCs) the oppositions central 6, now you’d have 5 players closing down their 6 👍 

7CE0F7AD-FB2E-42D0-AED2-05394E3D3D0F.thumb.jpeg.12613ea93ec822aa7b9ccc2c338179b2.jpeg

This isn’t a perfect representation of reality, as in real life they’d switch between pressing on each side / asymmetrical - which we can’t setup in FMM, but that’s not that big of a problem.

So as long as you don’t play with a SS, then it would leave the opposition with pretty weak passing lanes (white lines) , where either the opposition would play it long, or puts a lot of pressure in their central DC.

That’s what I’d expect to see (as an example) in real life - from a superior team.

What would you expect to see? 🙂 

As you said, the wingbacks will be key, once the keeper gives them the ball, you have your passing lanes and you pounce on the opp. The fullback pushes with the ball then one of the CM in the 5-3-2 goes to mark then you have numerical advantage in the middle. From there you continue with the attack, these will generate a lot of passes or if the opp decides to send an attacker instead of a CM, the wingback passes back to the ball playing defender who advances with the ball which one of the CM's have to send a man, this will create the numerical advantage again in the middle and open passing lanes. 

As I said, it's a mobile game and we shouldn't expect much from it. I just set my expectations too high😄

Edited by Uncleseekx
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1 hour ago, Uncleseekx said:

The fullback pushes with the ball then one of the CM in the 5-3-2 goes to mark then you have numerical advantage in the middle

That’s assuming they go to mark them. Alternatively, they could hold their shape and cut off passing lanes into the centre, forcing the fullback into a back pass or a long ball/speculative cross. With 5 defenders up against 3 attackers, there’s a good chance this long ball is won by the defence, who then have a ton of easy passes as @DanEnglish has shown. I think the game is pretty much spot on in terms of real life here. Why would Newcastle, who are trying to play defensively against your superior side, break their solid 5-3-2 shape to mark a wingback when they could easily frustrate his run and stop your attack without needlessly pressing him and exposing their midfield?

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11 minutes ago, lcutini32 said:

That’s assuming they go to mark them. Alternatively, they could hold their shape and cut off passing lanes into the centre, forcing the fullback into a back pass or a long ball/speculative cross. With 5 defenders up against 3 attackers, there’s a good chance this long ball is won by the defence, who then have a ton of easy passes as @DanEnglish has shown. I think the game is pretty much spot on in terms of real life here. Why would Newcastle, who are trying to play defensively against your superior side, break their solid 5-3-2 shape to mark a wingback when they could easily frustrate his run and stop your attack without needlessly pressing him and exposing their midfield?

If no one marks my wingback, it's going to be their downfall cause it's going to be 2 against 1 with their wingback, my inverted winger and their wingback that will be the opening 

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What you are saying here PERFECTLY describes the situation in the English Premier League in the mid-1990’s

… multiple teams were playing a 532, while others were playing a 442 / 4411 / 4231, which meant their full backs had the most time + space on the entire pitch! 

So this was how it evolved in real life …

5 hours ago, Uncleseekx said:

If no one marks my wingback, it's going to be their downfall cause it's going to be 2 against 1 with their wingback, my inverted winger and their wingback that will be the opening 



Option 1
You play a defensive FB (perhaps a failed ex-DC). He doesn’t push forward. The opposition are happy to stay in shape, not close him down as @lcutini32 said. Little happens. Boring. 

Option 2
You play a wing back (perhaps from a converted Winger). This is what Wenger did with speedy wing back Ashley Cole. With time + space vs a 532, the WB bombs forward …

D8F212C4-B18F-4D75-AED9-F2B30801CB71.thumb.jpeg.f8aafee4c86feb59bbb3677bd2b7120f.jpeg

… typically here the opposition WB would close your WB down: 

  • ideally for them, the opposition’s closest MC would track your IW/IF’s run inside…
  • … so their back 3 moves across a bit, with their WB on the other flank dropping back - essentially making a new back 4.
  • their other two MCs shift across.
  • they have closed you down quite well

 

Option 3
You play a INVERTED wing back (perhaps from a converted midfielder). With time and space, he drifts inside to be like another MC - like TAA sometimes for Liverpool or a Guardiola IWB.

D707D5D2-6A79-494B-BCB9-6811D5BBEE44.thumb.jpeg.e84e25aa5d0e081d8981a001d727582a.jpeg

… typically here the nearest opposition MC would close your IWB down: 

  • ideally for them, the opposition’s WB would track your IW/IF’s run inside…
  • … again their back 3 moves across a bit, with their WB on the other flank dropping back - essentially making a new back 4.
  • their other two MCs shift across.
  • they have closed you down quite well

One key here is the space on the OTHER FLANK - where your other WB is unmarked. Can you spread the play to the other flank? A key tactic in the EPL in recent years.

An alternative key is to have MUCH better players who can dribble past the opposition. Think like Grealish for Aston Villa in particular.

Thoughts? 🙂 

Edited by DanEnglish
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1 hour ago, DanEnglish said:

What you are saying here PERFECTLY describes the situation in the English Premier League in the mid-1990’s

… multiple teams were playing a 532, while others were playing a 442 / 4411 / 4231, which meant their full backs had the most time + space on the entire pitch! 

So this was how it evolved in real life …



Option 1
You play a defensive FB (perhaps a failed ex-DC). He doesn’t push forward. The opposition are happy to stay in shape, not close him down as @lcutini32 said. Little happens. Boring. 

Option 2
You play a wing back (perhaps from a converted Winger). This is what Wenger did with speedy wing back Ashley Cole. With time + space vs a 532, the WB bombs forward …

D8F212C4-B18F-4D75-AED9-F2B30801CB71.thumb.jpeg.f8aafee4c86feb59bbb3677bd2b7120f.jpeg

… typically here the opposition WB would close your WB down: 

  • ideally for them, the opposition’s closest MC would track your IW/IF’s run inside…
  • … so their back 3 moves across a bit, with their WB on the other flank dropping back - essentially making a new back 4.
  • their other two MCs shift across.
  • they have closed you down quite well

 

Option 3
You play a INVERTED wing back (perhaps from a converted midfielder). With time and space, he drifts inside to be like another MC - like TAA sometimes for Liverpool or a Guardiola IWB.

D707D5D2-6A79-494B-BCB9-6811D5BBEE44.thumb.jpeg.e84e25aa5d0e081d8981a001d727582a.jpeg

… typically here the nearest opposition MC would close your IWB down: 

  • ideally for them, the opposition’s WB would track your IW/IF’s run inside…
  • … again their back 3 moves across a bit, with their WB on the other flank dropping back - essentially making a new back 4.
  • their other two MCs shift across.
  • they have closed you down quite well

One key here is the space on the OTHER FLANK - where your other WB is unmarked. Can you spread the play to the other flank? A key tactic in the EPL in recent years.

An alternative key is to have MUCH better players who can dribble past the opposition. Think like Grealish for Aston Villa in particular.

Thoughts? 🙂 

For the wingback play, if their wingback comes after my wingback and one of the CM's mark my inside forward/inverted winger, it leaves them shorthanded in the midfield, 3 against 2 which my CM's should be able to play through if only one of their CB's is willing to leave their line and cover in the middle, this will leave a hole in the opp defense which the defense as to be defending as a unit to try and close that space everytime the opp's center back goes forward. This is something Inter did against Bayern where Bastoni had to be helping the left side of the midfield, it works sometimes but not effective.

 Inverted wingbacks though will be hard to breakthrough when the team you're going up against is using a 5-3-2. Hence why when City faced Villa, they could only Score a goal. Gerrard lined up with a 4-3-1-2/ 4-3-2-1 to try and choke up the middle to prevent City from creating chances and it worked. Guess when playing with inverted wingbacks, best option is to give the inside forward or inverted winger the ball to go up against the opp's wingback since it's going to be 1v1. As you said, having a Grealish and on this cause you will always favor the winger 5 out of 10 times to win the duel this will open passing space as a CB or CM as to close down

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Just now, Uncleseekx said:

For the wingback play, if their wingback comes after my wingback and one of the CM's mark my inside forward/inverted winger, it leaves them shorthanded in the midfield, 3 against 2

Probably not.

  • Firstly most DMCs in real life don’t play as attacking MCs, they act more like DLPS / DMs / Anchors, so actually it’s a 2 vs 2 in midfield.
  • In FMM (and the real world), their TM also drops back to mark your DMC, so it becomes 3 vs 3.
  • The only ways (I can think of) around this is (a) very fast unpredictable movement by your MCs to create space, or (b) having your DMC as a RP, who runs forward ahead of your 2x MCs into space, but that is rare in real life.
  • So in reality, it’s still a 2vs2 or 3vs3 in midfield. Plus they still have TWO spare DCs to cover if needed.
5 minutes ago, Uncleseekx said:

Guess when playing with inverted wingbacks, best option is to give the inside forward or inverted winger the ball to go up against the opp's wingback since it's going to be 1v1.

Completely agree 👍 

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1 hour ago, DanEnglish said:

Probably not.

  • Firstly most DMCs in real life don’t play as attacking MCs, they act more like DLPS / DMs / Anchors, so actually it’s a 2 vs 2 in midfield.
  • In FMM (and the real world), their TM also drops back to mark your DMC, so it becomes 3 vs 3.
  • The only ways (I can think of) around this is (a) very fast unpredictable movement by your MCs to create space, or (b) having your DMC as a RP, who runs forward ahead of your 2x MCs into space, but that is rare in real life.
  • So in reality, it’s still a 2vs2 or 3vs3 in midfield. Plus they still have TWO spare DCs to cover if needed.

Completely agree 👍 

I expect the DM to push up where one of the CM's I have push up, kind of an attacking midfielder, you could even have one if your CB's push up as the DM since you're playing a high line

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14 minutes ago, Uncleseekx said:

you could even have one if your CB's push up as the DM since you're playing a high line

Interesting!

It is risky to push up one of your two CBs, with a high line vs an opposition poacher. Hope your other CB is very speedy!

Also about playing a BPD / Libero - in real life, if their TM drops back to mark your DMC, then their Poacher would switch to stay near / kind of mark your best ball-playing defender (e.g. your BPD / Libero). This means it’ll be your worst ball playing CB who has the time and space to move into midfield.

The only way around that is to have BOTH your CBs as great ball playing defenders, just like Man City did repeatedly vs Man Utd recently.

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10 hours ago, DanEnglish said:

Interesting!

It is risky to push up one of your two CBs, with a high line vs an opposition poacher. Hope your other CB is very speedy!

Also about playing a BPD / Libero - in real life, if their TM drops back to mark your DMC, then their Poacher would switch to stay near / kind of mark your best ball-playing defender (e.g. your BPD / Libero). This means it’ll be your worst ball playing CB who has the time and space to move into midfield.

The only way around that is to have BOTH your CBs as great ball playing defenders, just like Man City did repeatedly vs Man Utd recently.

Please stop bringing my banter team into these convos, we've been through enough and yes something like that. Hence why a 4-3-3 is kind of OP in football if played well

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13 minutes ago, Uncleseekx said:

Please stop bringing my banter team into these convos, we've been through enough and yes something like that. Hence why a 4-3-3 is kind of OP in football if played well

Pity. My next example would have been about leaving Phil Jones unmarked + letting him have as much time on the ball as he wants … 🤣

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11 hours ago, DanEnglish said:

Pity. My next example would have been about leaving Phil Jones unmarked + letting him have as much time on the ball as he wants … 🤣

😏

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