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Tactics The Black Hawk (... or a quest to make IFs to work) [4123]


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1 hour ago, StuartM said:

The intent of using IWBs is for them to come in field more than overlap to encourage the BBMs to go into the AM space. That kind of works but from memory they did occasionally stay wide and cross from deep.

Same experience here playing Man Utd. Basically, the info I gathered from the highlights was when GK plays short and we build up from the back +opponent sitting deep) the iWBs tend to occupy midfield to increase numbers there, especially when focus passing thru center - less so when focused on flanks.

Like you, occasionally they keep wide for crosses, in particular when we regain possession in a "crowded" midfield. The iWBs serve then as an escape route via the flanks for a quick counter attack.

I find these roles, the iWBs, WBs, WMs, (Wingers / IFs less so) to be absolutely crucial in many formations. Ime they really make or break a formation if they aren't up to the task. Of course, this could be said for many roles across the pitch. But some more others tho and the flank ones I mentioned really need that perfect player with the right skill set.

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6 hours ago, DanEnglish said:

@Black Hawk, @BarnDoor, @Legend288 - you’ve all used Man. United with this tactic + I’d love to get your advice …

Situation - This ‘Black Hawk’ tactic is currently next in line to be tested in my ‘testing tactics’ thread - where I see what tactic is most suitable for Man. United’s current squad (no transfers, no using Ronaldo/Weghorst). It’s only a half-season test, but for all tactics.

Questions - as we have poor aerial upfront (Rashford in the middle) and our WBs have rather poor crossing …

  1. do you think it’s better to have WBs or IWBs on both flanks?
  2. Also am thinking of using a midfield three of Bruno (B2B left), Eriksen (B2B right) and Casemiro (DMC) - any suggestions?

Would appreciate your advice! 🙂 

As for the midfield, that's the exact formation I used in first season. In the second one I tried Fred as right B2B, but Erikson seemed better than him despite being a right footed right B2B.

As for the WB, I used only that role. Still haven't tested IWB. I actually like the way the wide WB give alternatives to our team (as everyone else goes to the middle). Then again, my first signing in was Pedro Porro. Dalot only turns OK by second season.

But I have to say I liked the explanation about IWB and will certainly test it too in my fifth season with Man Utd.

As for the IFs, the only thing I have to say is they must be (I don't know how to say this in english) wrong footed (???). That is a left footed by the right and a right footed by the left. Never heard the proper way to say it in english ahah

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Btw, let me say that I'm testing this with IWB and I'm actually impressed. The team plays almost exclusively down the middle, passing the ball in one-twos between the midfielders and IFs. The IWBs work almost as defensive midfielders, which enables the Roaming Playmaker to go up the field more often.

Of course, I have to see it more time, will use it during the entire second half of the season.

PS: have to say that I didn't like to see the team with IWB in the defensive midfielder line (could be because of the team instructions), but in the defensive line the team have his moments. The only thing is that IWB rarely go up the field and the striker has less chances from crosses. Also, my IFs stopped scoring and most times try to assist the striker inside the box.

Edited by Black Hawk
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I started with napoli. I was buying players max 21 year old. This was my restrict for myself. 

For expiring contracts no age control. 

 

In season 2  many games 6 or 7 played holiday becouse i was champion . Becouse i had less goals

 

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7 hours ago, Legend288 said:

I started with napoli. I was buying players max 21 year old. This was my restrict for myself. 

For expiring contracts no age control. 

 

In season 2  many games 6 or 7 played holiday becouse i was champion . Becouse i had less goals

 

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Napoli really is a odd one team to manage. But you won UCL in first season and Serie A two times, very good :)

As for the IWB, I did a quick test of two months ingame with them with Man Utd, 4th season (the same save I have been updating in this thread).

So, it's an interesting idea, but it requires some work to perform in this tactic.

The IWB sit somewhere in front of my centre backs, leaving my three midfielders safe to attack, which is good. The thing that isn't working is how the team plays ahead. Without my WBs being wide close to the box, it's my IFs who often are wide in their place. That takes them of the zones where I want them, close to the striker, making one-twos with him, with the B2B or the WB.

Played 13 games with IWB and don't get me wrong, it worked, we got 13 wins and only conceded once. I have to say that the team was very solid in defense, with the IWB being closer to the centre backs they weren't so exposed as usual.

Here's the results:

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So, why am I not convinced after this?

The thing is... the team creates less and is really dependant of my strikers to score. My IFs scored far less and had far less shots. It was always down to my B2B to try and assist my striker inside the box.

Rashford scored twice (both from direct free kicks, which is funny because he didn't score any previously in the season), Sancho twice (both in the same game), Moukoko also twice (both from long range shots against Dagenham & Redbridge) and Vítor Roque only once. That makes only 3 goals from my IFs from open plays (not long range shots or free kicks) in 13 games: the two from Sancho and the one of Vítor Roque. They were often out of the picture.

On the other side, yes, this reduces the need of good Aerial to the striker. Most goals where from shots in front of goal.

As for the stats, before testing this I did 35 games in the season scoring 92 goals (2,62 goals per game). During the 13 games with IWB, we scored 27 times (2,07 per game). Not only that, the goals were latter in the game. In those 35 games, we were already leading by 2 or more goals 16 times (45% of our games); in this 13 games, we did it only 3 times (23%). I had 1-0 wins 5 times until January; in those 13 games, it happened 4 times.

In conclusion, the IWBs in this tactic sure are a thing with a lot of potential, but it requires some changes in other roles and team instructions to not make IFs useless again. And to be honest, I don't think I'm experienced enough to figure it out by myself 😕

After those 13 games, I decided to return to my original setup (with WBs) and did the games from March, scoring 20 goals in 6 games (which included PSG two times, Liverpool, Chelsea and Tottenham). Rashford alone score 4 times.

Maybe the way this tactic is designed does not suit IWBs or I'm not seeing it clearly (which is the most probable thing happening here ahah).

Edited by Black Hawk
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@DanEnglish

Hey there.

I believe I have seen your post about these test... Very cool idea.

ManUtd starts with pretty bad aerial up front (especially without CR/Wout). Tbh, I used both in my save. CR until january, then swapped him with Weghorst, so I always had a solid aerial target. However, neither of them really stood out, probably because WBs had pretty bad crossing. I mostly used Rashford as my main striker, and even though the crossing has slightly improved, there werent many aerial goals.

Currently I'm on vacation and not playing, but my team still has Rashford as ST#1 and Ibra's regen with 16-17 aerial as my ST#2. WB situation has also been improved so i swap between WBs and IWBs depending on who's on the field.

For your test i would suggest IWBs. 

Looking forward to see the results.

Edited by BarnDoor
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So, I did my 4th season with Man Utd. I will not write as much as other times, it's only to give this final feedback about how it went.

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(The next two screenshots were results in a test with IWBs instead of WBs)

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(Then I returned to WBs as the team, despite being solid defensive, was scoring less and later in the game)

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(It can't be seen on the screenshot above, but Rashford scored the fifth goal)

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As you guys can see, it was another very successful season. We won the Premier League for a 4th season in a row, again unbeatable all season. If I'm not wrong, this makes 100 consecutive games for Premier League without any defeat.

By my accounts (and not counting friendly games, of course), we scored 178 goals in 67 games, which is 2,66 goals per game. We conceded 29 goals, which is 0,43 goals per game. 9 of those 29 goals (31%) were conceded on the Round of 16 and Quarter-Finals of Champions League against PSG and Man City. The former in a 5-2 win and a 2-2 draw in which I went with my second team, the latter, well, Haaland...

Of those 178 goals scored, 114 were on the first half (64%), which just adds to previous feedbacks: the team is scoring early in the game and in second half doesn't bother much with the goalscoring as the game is already won. 50 times out of 67 games we were already winning by half time (and 32 of those 50 by a 2 or more goals margin). Only twice we didn't won in those 50 games, both times against Man City and both were draws.

We won the Premier League, FIFA Club World Cup, European Supercup, Community Shield, Carabao Cup and FA Cup. We did end up 1st on Group Stage of Champions League (and more importantly, Sporting CP did the top 8 :D), but this time we were knocked out from Quarter-Finals of Champions League by Man City in a penalty shootout after a 5-5 draw overall.

What happened? Haaland happened! This little (blip) scored 4 goals alone, the guy is unbelievable.

Anyway, here's the players stats.

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We scored even more than last year, so my strikers had better numbers. Together, Osimhen and Scamacca scored 67 times, which is about the same amount Haaland scored with this tactic on the test I did with Man City. It shows that even with weaker Pressing Forwards (well, everyone is weaker than Haaland) is possible to get a lot of goals from them.

Rashford (this year mainly as right IF) and Sancho (always left IF) both scored exactly the same amount as last year, I believe. Moukoko scored a lot less and I don't know how to explain that as he played really well, was a dynamic player and all, but missed so much... Probably because he was used in a rotation system with Rashford, so maybe the fact that he didn't play a lot of consecutive games affected his performance? I don't know.

Vítor Roque did his first season in the squad. He was on loan the last two years and I believe he was used as a striker, so this was probably his first full season as an IF, which explains why he didn't score until November or December. By later stages of the season he was already getting the hang of it and I could see how his movements started to feel more natural to those of an IF.

So it takes time for an IF to grow in the role. I will talk about that later in this post with a theory.

Anyway, the kid still went on to score 8 times despite being a regular subbed player, which was promising.

Nothing much more to talk about individual performances. Declan Rice sure was wasted as an B2B last season, this year as RP he was absolutely fantastic. Julen Jon Guerrero and Tom Bischof, the two kids that are left footed right B2B, did really well despite the fact this was their first season on the first team, which really helps the theory that the right footed B2B must play as left B2B and the left footed as right B2B.

So, about the IFs, I noticed for some time now that even when they are Natural as IFs, there are other things that seems to affect their performance: the Role Traits.

Take for example Jadon Sancho.

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At the beginning, he only has the "Cuts Inside" Role Trait as IF. Remember when I said in the 1st season feedback that Sancho took several months to make his first assists and goals? Well, he lacks most of the useful role traits at the beggining.

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By middle of 4th season, he has a lot of useful role traits: gets into opposition area, he moves into channels (wtv that is, I don't know english enough to understand that lol), he likes to beat the offside traps and plays one-twos. And all those I can see on match engine. Some of his goals were after one-twos or beating the offside traps and even finishing at close range well inside the box.

Another example with Moukoko.

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At the beggining, he wasn't even an right IF and the only useful role trait was running through the centre (???). By middle of 4h season (so a year and a half with me) he shows already some more useful role traits as right IF.

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So, with time and training they (the IFs) start gaining role traits that gets them better. It takes time. I don't know if the training in the position helps this, but playing in the position sure helps.

This was 4th season. 4x Premier League champions, 2x Champions League winners, 1x Europa League, 1x Club world champions, 3 European Supercups, 4 Carabao Cups, 2 FA Cups, 2 Community Shields. The team is playing better every new season, scoring more and more despite the fact I'm using new young players who are still developing - this season I played some games with Morgalla, Álvaro Fernández, Ouédraogo, Guerrero/Bischof, Cucalón and Vítor Roque all at the same time, which was more than half the team with guys younger than 22/21 years old (and Moukoko or Gvardiol too, who are still young), and still we got these results.

The tactic is holding very well as I've been playing plug & play for four seasons now. It may require some adjustments to the squad as not all players are able to make it in this tactic, and takes time at the beggining, the first few months in 1st season were harsh until it started performing, but when it did, well, it never stopped.

As for Man Utd, the team is flying. I left them with a lot of young talented players that should dominate english and even european football for some time. I had nothing more to do at Old Trafford, so I resigned.

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90,42% of wins across four seasons, I think this is a great number.

I had tested it on top teams such as Man Utd, Man City and Sporting CP (which is a top 3 team in Portugal), in smaller teams such as Amora (my hometown midtable team in Portuguese third tier), Paços de Ferreira (arguably the worst team of Portuguese Primeira Liga) and Wolves. Won Premier League with both of Manchester rivals and Wolves, Primeira Liga with Sporting CP and Liga 3 with Amora. Paços de Ferreira didn't win, but ending 5th or 6th (can't recall) felt almost as a title ahah

I don't know if this tactic is any good or just suits my way of playing and managing the squad, but I keep getting good results and I like to see the teams playing with it.

(I'm saying this, but am actually terrified of the feedback @DanEnglish will give on his test, the starting Man Utd squad is terrible for this tactic and I'm afraid he will end up somewhere in the middle of the Premier League table 😶)

So, I resigned from Man Utd and applied for BVB, as they were without manager. They accepted me... as an interim manager. Apparently winning the Premier League 4 times in a row and being 2 times european champions in 3 years (and the current holder of FIFA Club World Cup) isn't enough to convince them!

Well, I took the job anyway. I can't even begin to describe the chaos I found at Westfallen. I will have fun for certain bringing them to glory... or die trying.

(I ended up writing more than I expected, sorry guys. I know, I keep apologizing but then I keep doing it anyway. Can't be helped LOL)

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@Black Hawk your detail, explanations + observations on this are fascinating to read - thank you for sharing so much

Great success at Man. United - congrats!

15 hours ago, Black Hawk said:

(I'm saying this, but am actually terrified of the feedback @DanEnglish will give on his test, the starting Man Utd squad is terrible for this tactic and I'm afraid he will end up somewhere in the middle of the Premier League table 😶)

Terrified? Well I finished the half-season test just now. Aim to write it up tomorrow. Something for you to … look forward to 🙂 

Spoiler

Edit / how we held on for a goalless draw here … I’ll never know!

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Edited by DanEnglish
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I tried another team like i did with Man Coty before. This time it was Newcastle. I know i brought a lot of players, all of my second team. I used them only for PL matches with teams below 10th place and in FA Cup. Had a few draws and some losses, but it was still enough to win PL and FA Cup at my first season!

Like before nothing changed from your basic tactic, plug and play. 

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Hi, Hakw, could you please share ur tactic in another picture format.  I can't see the picture even though I've been try many different method to get it. Words description is also ok. if u can do that, it will be a great help to me, thanks

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On 18/02/2023 at 20:34, gamkinnkristian said:

1st season (plug & play)

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On 19/02/2023 at 06:29, gamkinnkristian said:

2nd season (plug & play)

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Good results! Angers is not supposed to be that strong, are they?

How is the team playing? Is there good involvement of B2B and IF in the attack?

Thanks for your feedback :)

On 20/02/2023 at 13:24, Disque said:

I tried another team like i did with Man Coty before. This time it was Newcastle. I know i brought a lot of players, all of my second team. I used them only for PL matches with teams below 10th place and in FA Cup. Had a few draws and some losses, but it was still enough to win PL and FA Cup at my first season!

Like before nothing changed from your basic tactic, plug and play. 

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Good results too, but your IFs were less in play than expected, at least at scoring. Isak must be a beast in this, he has all the right attributes for a striker in this tactic.

I'm trying in last few days some changes to see if I get the IFs to score more regularly, I will post feedback about it. The main tactic still keeps winning, but I would love to see IFs scoring more...

4 hours ago, jufeifan said:

Hi, Hakw, could you please share ur tactic in another picture format.  I can't see the picture even though I've been try many different method to get it. Words description is also ok. if u can do that, it will be a great help to me, thanks

The pictures look fine to me, but no problem.

Formation is 4123 (2 WB, 2 CD, 1 RP as defensive midfielder, 2 B2B, 2 IF in forward line, 1 PF as striker).

Team mentality as Control, Narrow formation, Normal Tempo and Expressive  Creative Freedom.

Defensive line high, closing down all over, tackling normal, no time wasting and no offside trap.

Final third with work into box and run at defense, short passing style and keeper distribution, mixed passing focus.

Good luck :)

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7 hours ago, Black Hawk said:

 

Good results! Angers is not supposed to be that strong, are they?

How is the team playing? Is there good involvement of B2B and IF in the attack?

Thanks for your feedback :)

Good results too, but your IFs were less in play than expected, at least at scoring. Isak must be a beast in this, he has all the right attributes for a striker in this tactic.

I'm trying in last few days some changes to see if I get the IFs to score more regularly, I will post feedback about it. The main tactic still keeps winning, but I would love to see IFs scoring more...

The pictures look fine to me, but no problem.

Formation is 4123 (2 WB, 2 CD, 1 RP as defensive midfielder, 2 B2B, 2 IF in forward line, 1 PF as striker).

Team mentality as Control, Narrow formation, Normal Tempo and Expressive  Creative Freedom.

Defensive line high, closing down all over, tackling normal, no time wasting and no offside trap.

Final third with work into box and run at defense, short passing style and keeper distribution, mixed passing focus.

Good luck :)

it's really help, thx again

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For the 5th season of my save test, I decided to leave Old Trafford. BVB was without a coach and, as I hadn't trained in the Bundesliga yet, it seemed like the right time and the right club to do a test in German soil. Also, BVB isn't german champion for 14 years now and no great team should be that long without winning.

The squad I found at Westfallen were atrocious. Between the main team and the secondary team (which plays in the 3. Bundesliga) there were more than 70 players. Most of them didn't have the level to play for BVB and I tried to get rid of most of them. Some left, most stayed as no one wanted them.

The squad had many players that I fit into different categories:

1) players originally from BVB, such as Nico Schulz, Sebastián Haller, Thomas Meunier or Thorgan Hazard, who are already older and have lost attributes with age and did not have the level to play for BVB;

2) players already signed by BVB during these four years and who also do not have the level for this, such as João Mário (Porto), Daniele Rugani (Juventus), Mads Bidstrup (Brentford), Tim Breithaupt (Karlsruhe) or Alexander Sørloth (Leipzig, I believe);

3) some players signed during these four years, who are not fantastic, but not bad alternatives to the starting eleven, such as Mario Vuskovic (Hamburg), Mateus Fernandes (Sporting CP) or Samuele Ricci (Torino, I think);

4) some reinforcements in these four years that are theoretically good, like Denzel Dumfries (Inter), Gabriel (Arsenal), Ewan N'Dicka (Eintracht), Marc Cucurella (everyone knows this one), Irfan Can Kavehci (Fenerbahçe) or Pedro Neto (Wolves);

5) and finally, some of the gems left over from the original squad, such as Karim Adeyemi, Gio Reyna, Jude Bellingham or Donyell Malen.

Something transversal to all these cases is that I found them undervalued. With the exception of Bellingham who is fantastic (I almost lost my mind last season and was this close to buy him for Old Trafford; now I'm glad I didn't), no one seems to have evolved over these four years. Dumfries, Gabriel, N'Dicka, Cucurella, Reyna, Pedro Neto, Adeyemi, they all seem to have attributes at the level of the ones they start the game with in 2022, and in some cases they even seem worse to me. 

Don't know what the previous BVB managers have been doing here, but even Mateus Fernandes, who I know very well from all the tests I did and which I mentioned in the first post, usually ends his first season with me at Sporting in 2023 better than the one I found here in 2026!

I took prints of some of them to show here. Examples:

 

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Evan N'Dicka is a good centre back, I almost bought him to Man Utd in 2022 but I choose Jean-Clair Todibo instead. I'm pretty sure he was better then as I wouldn't consider buying him if he was like this. Also, he spent last year on loan to Debreceni, don't know what happened.

Guys like Gabriel, Dumfries and Cucurella are almost like this too, few attributes are green, most are blue or yellow. I was baffled.

 

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I found Gio Reyna and Karim Adeyemi like this. Two guys who are in every list of top promises in this game, four years later I wouldn't even consider buying them to Sporting CP. What the heck?

Anyway, BVB brought me in as an interim coach, so the transfer budget was limited. In order not to give an exhaustive description of the squad, just want to mention that the team needed a Left Wing Back (only had Cucurella, Schulz was released), a left Inside Forward (only had Hazard, but he was already far from having quality; I only had Malen, who I retrained as IF because he has low Aerial to be a Striker, so needed another one) and a Striker (I only had Sørloth, who doesn't convince me, and Haller, who no longer has the level for this).

Fortunately, in other teams there were also undervalued players who were transfer listed and at very attractive prices: I brought Sergio Gómez (Man City, left WB for 13,5M), Rodrygo (Real Madrid, left IF for 10M, this one I was surprised that nobody had him signed before me), and I tried Isak (Newcastle) who was also transfer listed, but as they asked for money I didn't have, I brought his substitute, Beto (Udinese, Newcastle signed him somewhere during these four years, 30M).

To give you guys an example of how these guys were at this time, this is Rodrygo in 2026.

 

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For something around 50M I brought three starters for my team (I spent the rest of my transfer budget in some hot prospects I had in mind since the Man Utd days). The starting eleven and their alternatives I leave to the prints of their stats later in this post.

In January, BVB actually gave me more money. I didn't receive any news, just noticed the transfer budget was higher than expected, maybe they considered me no longer an interim manager or something like that. Some of my kiddos at Man Utd were unhappy because the new manager wasn't using them, I didn't had money to bring most of them but I snatched Tom Bischof midseason for 50M. A young left footed german midfielder that was performing good in my last season at Old Trafford, seems to me like a perfect fit to this new BVB.

The goals for this season was to develop most players to close to their true potential, as almost all of them were nowhere close to it, while trying to adapt the team to the way this tactic performs - as have been said by a lot of people, it takes time to build relationships and things start clicking.

 

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(a lot of friendlies to start creating relationships between the players, and then this happened)

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(Beto, Sørloth and Adeyemi scored a lot in Bundesliga)

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(away game against my old team Man Utd for group stage of Champions League) 

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(in great display in first leg of Semi Finals at Santiago Bernabeu)

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(Champions League final and we finally won a Der Klassiker)

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I must confess that not even in my best dreams did I imagine a season like this.

In the Bundesliga, I only have the disappointment of having lost both Der Klassiker. Both games were close, but Bayern has better individual quality and that made the difference: they scored their chances, we didn't. Anyway, BVB is the new german champion, 15 years after the last time.

In the DFB-Pokal, we were surprisingly knocked out by Hertha in a game that left me frustrated by the amount of missed goals.

In the Champions League, we started badly with a defeat against Rennes, but then... that's what you guys can see in the pics. This was poetic!

1) we won the group stage including a good beating at Old Trafford against my old boys (I left the screenshot of the game between the images above);

2) we knocked out Atlético (which was Spanish champion by the end of the season), Bayer Leverkusen (which is the 3rd best German team in the game at this point behind Bayern and us) and Real Madrid (which was the European champion last season and is managed by no other than Cristiano Ronaldo ahah);

3) and we played the final against the same team against which BVB played in its last final 15 years ago, in 2012, and which is the dominator of German football (at this point in the game, Bayern were champions 14 times in last 15 years, only Bayer Leverkusen managed to win the Bundesliga, I think in 2024/25).

It was all perfect.

As for the numbers, we scored 148 goals in 52 games (2,85 goals per game) and conceded 26 times (0,5 goals per game). We reached Half Time already winning 35 times out of 52 (67%), scoring 85 goals in first half (57% of all our goals).

All this stats are close to the stats I had in previous seasons. We scored more than Man Utd (Bundesliga seems a lot easier than Premier League), but conceded more. My defense is not that great and that can be seen in Champions League where I conceded as much in 15 games as in 34 games in Bundesliga. All my WBs are offensive ones, they lack Tackling, Positioning and everything a defense must have for that mather, and my centre backs are only OK-ish.

 

yKEjdVs.jpeg

A6X6DM9.jpeg

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The players stats are much alike of those I showed in Man Utd.

Beto performed OK, but hecs not Osimhen or Scamacca. He still was considered the best player of Champions League and this shows how we don't really need a world class striker to perform in this tactic. Just look at Sørloth, who did good despite his attributes.

My B2Bs scored less goals than what I was used to, but then again no one here is a Bruno Fernandes. On the other hand, Jude Bellingham was fantastic as a RP.

My IFs were strange. Both Rodrygo and Adeyemi (who I retrained as right IF) scored a lot until January (Rodrygo had 11 and Adeyemi 10, I believe) and then had two/three months where they missed everything they touched. By the final stages of the season they started scoring again. I don't even... I... can't explain this.

It's like there are roles that dumb players down. I've noticed it previously with Rashford. There was one time when I had to use him as a striker for a few games (first season if I recall it correctly, Martial was injured) and he scored like 2 or 3 out of every 4 or 5 chances he had ahead of goal. But when he had chances just like those, but playing has IF, he scored 1 out of every 4 or 5.

It's difficult not to think that they have nerfed some roles to underperform despite the attributes of players playing there. Adeyemi or Moukoko, for instance, are two of the hottest strikers of this game, I've seen people playing with them scoring 40/50 or more goals per season, but I've seen they missing a lot of clear cut chancea as IFs. I swear, given time I'm tempted to edit Haaland to be IF and test a full season just to see if he too starts missing clear cut chances playing there.

Anyway, my IFs still had good numbers. They did like 30/35 games as starters (the other appearances were entering the field late game) and scored 16/17 goals, which is close to 1 goals out of every 2 games. That's not bad at all, as Rashford and Sancho last season did like 35/40 games as starters and scored 16 (Sancho) and 20 times (Rashford). It's just... I'm angry as I feel they could have done more. I see them having chances every game, but missing a lot more than they should and I can't keep away the feeling that the game actively tries to nerf them.

I intend to do two more season in BVB (to be able to play the Club World Cup with them). I'm already playing second season and I'm looking for a tweak to reduce the amount of crosses (for teams without a striker good in Aerial) and to provide more clear cut chances to my IFs.

This is me being stubborn, as this tactic is giving good results and I could be satisfied with what this achieves. If the goal is to win, I believe this will provide wins most of the times. But I like to see my team winning while playing good, beautiful football, with lots of involvement of everyone and movements without the ball, through passes and clear cut chances of unlikely players (like my midfielders and IFs), and that's not happening as much a I would like... and when it happens, they inexplicably miss most of them anyway.

It's frustrating.

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@Black Hawk,

If your goal is to limit the crosses, you should test IWBs in this formation. I've been using them from time to time, depending which striker i had on the field (low or high aerial skill).

I'd be interested to see your results with it, and ofc, your analysis 😁

Not sure if @DanEnglish has finished his tests with this tweak..? (I've had lots of stuff happen recently and wasnt checking here).

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7 hours ago, BarnDoor said:

@Black Hawk,

If your goal is to limit the crosses, you should test IWBs in this formation. I've been using them from time to time, depending which striker i had on the field (low or high aerial skill).

I'd be interested to see your results with it, and ofc, your analysis 😁

Not sure if @DanEnglish has finished his tests with this tweak..? (I've had lots of stuff happen recently and wasnt checking here).

I tested it in my last season with Man Utd. Well, tested it only during two months ingame. Truth be told it worked pretty well, but I actually like the wide position of my WBs to give width to my formation. It gives alternatives to my players when our opponents park their whole team in the middle of the pitch.

I'm weird, I know, I keep searching ways to play differently despite the fact that I've been getting good results already 😁 but at least it keeps me motivated to keep playing.

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9 hours ago, BarnDoor said:

Not sure if @DanEnglish has finished his tests with this tweak..? (I've had lots of stuff happen recently and wasnt checking here).

Not yet. Was ill for a few days this week, expect to finish the analysis + write up of the ‘Black Hawk’ deep dive (with lots of stats!) this weekend / early next week … then test with IWBs mid/late next week 👍 

23 hours ago, Black Hawk said:

But when he had chances just like those, but playing has IF, he scored 1 out of every 4 or 5.

On 24/02/2023 at 09:08, Black Hawk said:

and I can't keep away the feeling that the game actively tries to nerf them.

As alternative theories - could it be that the IFs have chances from slightly wider areas (lower xG) than the ST’s central chances (higher xG)?

Or that opposition FBs are usually faster than opposition DCs, so the (msn-marked) IF has more pressure on them, rather than the lone ST who sits in the hole inbetween 2 slower DCs, so is under less pressure on him?

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21 hours ago, DanEnglish said:

Not yet. Was ill for a few days this week, expect to finish the analysis + write up of the ‘Black Hawk’ deep dive (with lots of stats!) this weekend / early next week … then test with IWBs mid/late next week 👍 

As alternative theories - could it be that the IFs have chances from slightly wider areas (lower xG) than the ST’s central chances (higher xG)?

Or that opposition FBs are usually faster than opposition DCs, so the (msn-marked) IF has more pressure on them, rather than the lone ST who sits in the hole inbetween 2 slower DCs, so is under less pressure on him?

Could be. But I've also seen my IFs on central zones of the box shooting straight against the keeper. Or slightly wide missing the goal by far. In time I will try to show examples.

I've been testing tweaks all season in my 2nd year with BVB. We kept winning, but creating much less chances and scoring less too. But I found a promising combination of attacking instructions with "through ball" instead of "running at defense" and focus passing in the centre instead of mixed.

Only have three months ingame with this tweak, 18 games in that period (between January and April), but I've made a comparison with the same period of last season and compiled some stats that I can share here.

So, last season with the main tactic posted on first post, plug & play, I played 18 games in that period and got:

-> 15W-1D-2L

-> 43 goals scored (2,38 per game)

-> 7 goals conceded (0,38 per game)

As for the match stats, I compiled the data from ball possession, passes attempts and completed, crosses attempted and successful.

The bare minimum we had of ball possession was away against Bayern (1-2 defeat) with only 47%. At that game we had also the worst passing attempts (199) and completed (148). The match with less crosses was against Leipzig (2-1 home win) with 10 crosses, 3 of them successful.

On the other hand, we got a maximum of 61% of possession (0-0 away against Atlético Madrid). The game with more passing was the same 2-1 home win against Leipzig where we did less crosses and had 295 pass attempts and 238 completed. The game with more crosses was home against Atlético Madrid, we did 36 crosses (!!!), one of them provided a goal from Beto in a 3-0 win.

The average stats per game of the main "The Black Hawk" tactic in those last season 18 games was:

Ball possession: 54,5%

Pass attempts: 253,5

Pass completed: 203 (80% sucess)

Cross attempts: 24,3

Cross completed: 7 (28,8%)

With this tweaked version and in the exact same period this season, in 18 games I got:

-> 17W-1D-0L

-> 58 goals scored (3,22 per game)

-> 9 goals conceded (0,50 per game, but 3 of them were in the same game in a 4-3 win againat Hoffenheim)

We had a match with only 42% of ball possession, but it was in a 6-0 win against dear rivals of Schalke 04. The worst stats of pass attemps and completed was 231/189 (against 199/148 of the main tactic), but this was in a 4-0 win against other of BVB close rivals, M'Gladbach. As for crosses, we went as low as 9 crosses in an game against Hoffenheim (4-3 win).

The best stats were of 66% of ball possession in an away 1-0 win at Stamford Bridge at Champions League. In the same match we did 380 pass attempts and 307 of those were successful, 32 cross attempts of which 11 were successful. No other game went as close to these numbers as this.

So, the average stats of this tweaked version in these 18 games was:

Ball possession: 52,8% (vs 54,5 of main tactic)

Pass attempts: 293,7 (vs 253,5 of main tactic)

Pass completed: 242,5 (82% successful) | (vs 203 of main tactic)

Cross attempts: 18 (vs 24,3 of main tactic)

Cross completed: 4,9 (27,2% success)

What to make of this?

Well, we have less crosses and the players pass the ball around much more. There's less match engine plays with one of my WBs running ahead with the ball and more with my three midfielders passing the ball between them until there's a gap to explore.

My WBs still cross sometimes, but the team don't rely so much of them crossing for headers of my striker. In 18 games, we scored 58 goals and I believe only 5 of these were headings of my striker after crossing from one of WBs.

To give you guys an idea of who has impact on the goals scored, I was counting the assists and goals for position and will post it. Keep in mind I didn't count with goals from corners, penalty and direct free kicks. Also, didn't count assists from corners and indirect free kicks.

Position: Goals / Assists

Right Wing Back: 0 / 4

Left Wing Back: 1 / 3

Roaming Playmaker: 5 / 5

Right B2B: 2 / 6

Left B2B: 4 / 3

Right IF: 5 / 10

Left IF: 11 / 2

Pressing Forward: 17 / 11

 

So, a lot less assists from my WBs because we don't cross so much anymore, but the goals keep coming and everyone is doing it. My strikers keep scoring and most of them from shots, not headers, and keep making assists to colleagues who run through the box (both IFs and B2Bs).

I found this interesting enough to share with you guys, will continue to test to ensure that this tweaked version maintains consistency for the reminder of this 2nd season and all 3rd season.

Edited by Black Hawk
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3 hours ago, Black Hawk said:

Could be. But I've also seen my IFs on central zones of the box shooting straight against the keeper. Or slightly wide missing the goal by far. In time I will try to show examples.

I've been testing tweaks all season in my 2nd year with BVB. We kept winning, but creating much less chances and scoring less too. But I found a promising combination of attacking instructions with "through ball" instead of "running at defense" and focus passing in the centre instead of mixed.

Only have three months ingame with this tweak, 18 games in that period (between January and April), but I've made a comparison with the same period of last season and compiled some stats that I can share here.

So, last season with the main tactic posted on first post, plug & play, I played 18 games in that period and got:

-> 15W-1D-2L

-> 43 goals scored (2,38 per game)

-> 7 goals conceded (0,38 per game)

As for the match stats, I compiled the data from ball possession, passes attempts and completed, crosses attempted and successful.

The bare minimum we had of ball possession was away against Bayern (1-2 defeat) with only 47%. At that game we had also the worst passing attempts (199) and completed (148). The match with less crosses was against Leipzig (2-1 home win) with 10 crosses, 3 of them successful.

On the other hand, we got a maximum of 61% of possession (0-0 away against Atlético Madrid). The game with more passing was the same 2-1 home win against Leipzig where we did less crosses and had 295 pass attempts and 238 completed. The game with more crosses was home against Atlético Madrid, we did 36 crosses (!!!), one of them provided a goal from Beto in a 3-0 win.

The average stats per game of the main "The Black Hawk" tactic in those last season 18 games was:

Ball possession: 54,5%

Pass attempts: 253,5

Pass completed: 203 (80% sucess)

Cross attempts: 24,3

Cross completed: 7 (28,8%)

With this tweaked version and in the exact same period this season, in 18 games I got:

-> 17W-1D-0L

-> 58 goals scored (3,22 per game)

-> 9 goals conceded (0,50 per game, but 3 of them were in the same game in a 4-3 win againat Hoffenheim)

We had a match with only 42% of ball possession, but it was in a 6-0 win against dear rivals of Schalke 04. The worst stats of pass attemps and completed was 231/189 (against 199/148 of the main tactic), but this was in a 4-0 win against other of BVB close rivals, M'Gladbach. As for crosses, we went as low as 9 crosses in an game against Hoffenheim (4-3 win).

The best stats were of 66% of ball possession in an away 1-0 win at Stamford Bridge at Champions League. In the same match we did 380 pass attempts and 307 of those were successful, 32 cross attempts of which 11 were successful. No other game went as close to these numbers as this.

So, the average stats of this tweaked version in these 18 games was:

Ball possession: 52,8% (vs 54,5 of main tactic)

Pass attempts: 293,7 (vs 253,5 of main tactic)

Pass completed: 242,5 (82% successful) | (vs 203 of main tactic)

Cross attempts: 18 (vs 24,3 of main tactic)

Cross completed: 4,9 (27,2% success)

What to make of this?

Well, we have less crosses and the players pass the ball around much more. There's less match engine plays with one of my WBs running ahead with the ball and more with my three midfielders passing the ball between them until there's a gap to explore.

My WBs still cross sometimes, but the team don't rely so much of them crossing for headers of my striker. In 18 games, we scored 58 goals and I believe only 5 of these were headings of my striker after crossing from one of WBs.

To give you guys an idea of who has impact on the goals scored, I was counting the assists and goals for position and will post it. Keep in mind I didn't count with goals from corners, penalty and direct free kicks. Also, didn't count assists from corners and indirect free kicks.

Position: Goals / Assists

Right Wing Back: 0 / 4

Left Wing Back: 1 / 3

Roaming Playmaker: 5 / 5

Right B2B: 2 / 6

Left B2B: 4 / 3

Right IF: 5 / 10

Left IF: 11 / 2

Pressing Forward: 17 / 11

 

So, a lot less assists from my WBs because we don't cross so much anymore, but the goals keep coming and everyone is doing it. My strikers keep scoring and most of them from shots, not headers, and keep making assists to colleagues who run through the box (both IFs and B2Bs).

I found this interesting enough to share with you guys, will continue to test to ensure that this tweaked version maintains consistency for the reminder of this 2nd season and all 3rd season.

Speaking of this, did a quick run with Man Utd until the World Cup break and surprise, surprise, had almost the same results as the @DanEnglish test with the main The Black Hawk tactic.

 

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(not all players have 22 appearances because some were booked a lot and missed games. Dalot, Shaw and Bruno all missed the clash with Man City, Dalot missed one Europa League game and Casemiro a Premier League match that I don't recall our opponent)

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We scored a bit more, but conceded a bit more too. The main difference I found is that the goals and assists are more evenly distributed between all players. I noticed the midfielders still struggling to pass the ball between them as the tactic still isn't clicking. As per usual, the first few months are most difficult.

The draws were against Tottenham, Man City and Leeds (all 0-0 draws), the defeat 2-0 at Anfield Road (I always had a hard time playing against them and their three motorbiker attackers, Diaz, Darwin and Salah are too fast, is not even fair).

Will keep playing with BVB now to get more data on this tweak, but so far so good, I have hope this has potential.

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3 hours ago, Black Hawk said:

I found this interesting enough to share with you guys

And I found it interesting enough to read EVERY word of what you wrote. Love the testing, love the stats, love the write up 👍 

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Decided to give this tactic a go in Scotland, starting from the bottom with Elgin City and hoping to work my way to the top taking over from them 2 Glasgow teams (Celtic and Rangers)......

First season went amazingly.

1446136196_FM23Mobile_2023-03-01-09-17-17.thumb.jpg.62291543e722073151e6d925ed8302ae.jpg

great job on the tactic @Black Hawk 👍👏

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Just posted the ‘IWB version’ test on my normal thread.

Surprisingly - in terms of performance + suitability for Man. United’s starting squad - I rated: 

  • your original tactic as 4.5 stars - remains the best tested so far!
  • while the IWB version only 4 stars!

😲

Edited by DanEnglish
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Decided to start a save with Preston North End using this tactic. Won the Championship in the first season and after several seasons of building my squad and getting the right type of players I have finally won the Premiership.

Excellent tactic. 👍🏻

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29 minutes ago, Melv98 said:

@MarkD The goals against is fantastic (as well as goals scored) I do like tactics that are very solid in defence.

Are your midfielders scoring many goals?

Honestly mate I can't give you definitive answer on that one 🤣 I usually sell at end of season so I can free up funds for wages and free signings, but I have noticed them chipping in with a few, it's mainly my front 3 that get the goals

Once I get a more consistent settled team then I can keep an eye out more but for now while I'm working my way up the leagues, it's all about how much money I can get for my players 🤣

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Do you guys use the original version of the tactic, like in the op? I'm nowhere near the goals scored you get, defensively I concede about the same amount. 

Let me know 😁

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