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DanEnglish

Experiment - do Player Traits matter? (in the match engine?


A2C0F649-4E9B-4280-806E-1C8FDB7E4853.jpeg.f3dccf53a539ece91f4e979819c8bef3.jpeg

 
FMM Experiments:

do Player Traits make any difference?

9A9E20BE-474A-4011-A584-C140EADC6F73.jpeg.95c271d2210e013e4916f16f5de15bd6.jpeg

Intro
‘killer balls’, ‘long shots’, ‘hugs line’ … each player has ‘traits’ which YOU may think are important + may be considered vital in challenges …

… BUT do traits actually make any difference in the FMM23 match engine? Let’s experiment + find the answer together …

SPOILER - I think the answer is “no!”
 

Background
Using the editor, I customised a English top league team to create ‘FC20’ - who have two wingers:

  • “left winger” has the ‘hugs line’ trait.
  • ”right winger” has the ‘moves into channels’ trait
Spoiler

Left Winger

5D04353D-FA6F-4A84-8B98-EECCF79E1DE5.thumb.jpeg.348ddb322b860bad04d0d73fadfd16bb.jpeg

F757AB3F-418D-44A0-BBC2-C08B9AE1DE76.thumb.jpeg.6b426d012238708aefa51406f4721ef4.jpeg

Right Winger

9CC03925-4DB5-45BF-8ED7-DBFD3F977D54.thumb.jpeg.3bd54aae603f690c66968f1ee041387d.jpeg

D7BE7F3C-A32C-43BA-A4A1-32784FA79533.thumb.jpeg.b3dce2640d6b3f309b7f9fcfaf270eba.jpeg

 
<later for experiments 3+4, we change “right winger” to have ‘cuts inside”>

Spoiler

Right Winger (experiments 3+4)

62D1AC5B-1290-46F4-94A6-BBC650AF70A7.thumb.jpeg.fd04d14f4634df7604eff2f378ab3fa0.jpeg

9093DF29-B1CA-4BB3-B2E0-A9127B4E7D45.thumb.jpeg.408728e46a7501fe6f59e9bc33ba05ad.jpeg

 

Experiment 1
Which winger moves wider? Our left winger (with ‘hugs line’) or right winger (with ‘moves into channels’) … ?

4F9A8AEA-880D-4C3D-9501-C84B60753FC8.jpeg.d6d0462ac574f2fcbbab0f3b3e02d2cb.jpeg

Spoiler

Here’s our setup - on NARROW width:

C67A4304-77E4-4A47-BFD0-13CA7B8914CF.thumb.jpeg.43ee283584ab14ee31d13598f3787ba7.jpeg

At kickoff, both wingers are identically positioned in line with the opposition penalty box …

2245EA05-302A-4339-8A0C-54A90193CC70.thumb.jpeg.29579334e73520a2857173e8fe7ae89e.jpeg

… immediately afterwards, both wingers drift inside …

F59FEFDA-91AA-4A53-B4C8-D70DE7F398C5.thumb.jpeg.5b26aded09474731de2b4abe895a4653.jpeg

… and both stay inside all game (!) …

5098B5A9-DF07-4A72-86E9-6D25A289380A.thumb.jpeg.a91fd79b323192fbcfad1dc384192fe7.jpeg

GIF 🙂 look at the wingers drift inside…

DF91795D-37A5-4DF4-8F17-906BA45DE1D7.gif.e0a6514e79cdc571f0803f13acae8444.gif

Answer = on narrow width, both wingers drift inside + there is no difference between them (even though ‘hugs line’ should force the left winger wider)

 
Experiment 2
On WIDE width, which winger moves wider?

5A48A3D3-10BD-4FF4-B7F1-0EAFCC44324D.jpeg.74956d7f9370a2c88e0bdbd34d555608.jpeg

Spoiler

Kickoff … both wingers positioned wider 👍 

E4F39538-97CD-45DF-A441-494174E111EE.thumb.jpeg.f7ae27a32abf7678893d6954ceed6d7c.jpeg

… both move slightly wider …

B021A0BA-EB5C-4217-B519-AD66BD95372B.thumb.jpeg.caaaf162291e68943e42f93f613ef110.jpeg

… but both drift centrally as well …

52A072B5-B1D0-4B00-A662-97086A0E334A.thumb.jpeg.4ceb48625425256a58fbca9c723c0e00.jpeg

GIF - when the ball is in the center, both wingers are roughly the same width! 

28A4B36A-89F0-4CEA-8271-12DDE191FDA5.gif.330803f0cce065103ef54038399cac7a.gif

Answer = on WIDE width, both wingers usually stay wider + there is no difference between them (again even though ‘hugs line’ should force the left winger wider)

 
Experiment 3
Ok let’s compare left winger (‘hugs line’) with our new right winger (‘cuts inside’) - this should be much clearer … right?!

4F9A8AEA-880D-4C3D-9501-C84B60753FC8.jpeg.d6d0462ac574f2fcbbab0f3b3e02d2cb.jpeg

Spoiler

Our setup - the DMC is moved to AMC + we are back to NARROW width

670781CA-CAA0-4AB3-BDA7-94194915EAF5.thumb.jpeg.52d7b5f667cbadb47e1e7d9cdfa46003.jpeg

Kickoff. Both wingers positioned narrow - in line with the penalty area …

78A94CB5-4E39-47E9-8D62-084C746444EA.thumb.jpeg.8f07cfca0335d194c8730db63f80bf39.jpeg

Afterwards - both drift inside equally …

126EE917-836A-4D29-9896-7F9FF82DE913.thumb.jpeg.b6b2ea4ebef5dc8ba9d765054b7d1bbd.jpeg

GIF - doesn’t look like the ML ‘hugs line’ 😞 

0F881F30-F966-492B-AE0D-2ED8FDEEDCE0.gif.9c91de78a7fdd61d52b5cbd84f1a1e89.gif

 

Answer = on narrow width, both wingers usually stay wider + there is no difference between them (hugs line vs cuts inside!)
 

Experiment 4
Same (hugs line vs cuts inside) - but on WIDE width.

5A48A3D3-10BD-4FF4-B7F1-0EAFCC44324D.jpeg.74956d7f9370a2c88e0bdbd34d555608.jpeg

Spoiler

Kickoff - both wingers are positioned wider again 👍 

705F9B74-E283-4707-AFEB-592F1316A894.thumb.jpeg.b2477121c0455f5ad6018766b7daab32.jpeg

… and both stay wide …

BB3246F3-63CC-4E03-8C9A-B473600683BE.thumb.jpeg.667781af128f6b1ffb787185679a6703.jpeg

… sometimes the ML winger seems to be slightly wider - but not by much.

0C35D63C-A8A5-468E-BA6A-C6A91940FF8D.thumb.jpeg.58bd1bc70e6ecf26b19188e7f7f54e0e.jpeg

GIF - whichever flank the ball is on, that winger will be a little wider.

816BEA26-D46F-40BD-ABC3-6E18CB31DA71.gif.6758610510ac030521f68db7ab49de09.gif

Answer = on WIDE width, both wingers usually stay wider + there is (almost) no difference between them.  
 

CONCLUSION
There SHOULD be a big difference between ‘hugs line’ + ‘moves into channels’, plus an even bigger difference between ‘hugs line’ + ‘cuts inside’ …

BUT I can’t see any difference.

It seems that these traits do NOT make any difference in the match engine.  

 Thoughts?! 🙂 

Edited by DanEnglish
Added more spoilers - so page is easier to load / refresh
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What do Player Traits do? (in the FMM23 match engine?   

36 members have voted

  1. 1. What do Player Traits do? (in the FMM23 match engine?

    • Vital - ‘Hugs Line’ forces wingers wider, overrides your tactics instructions
      3
    • Useful - ‘Hugs Line’ encourages wingers to go wide, but not against your tactics instructions
      10
    • Nothing - ‘Hugs Line’ does nothing in the match engine, it is just a label
      17
    • Other / Don’t Know
      6


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Interesting experiment 👍 thanks for posting your findings. Definitely something to think about .. or forget in this case.

Or.. just thinking out loud here... or does it mean, well, is it defined by FMM as something they excel at but not necessarily do on their own unless instructed to? For example, they may never cut inside unless given the iW role. And then the player that holds this "cut inside" trait does a better job than the other flank player who carries the "hugs the line" trait. 

Possibly this??

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PS. @BarnDoor has been doing his own experiments in this thread <here> … below is an extract …

15 hours ago, BarnDoor said:

The traits didn't make a huge difference. Players were still effective. I haven't seen anything different from IFs in terms of movement (with and without the ball). The whole "cuts inside" trait may just be a hoax 🤔

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As a note - I think I misunderstood ‘cuts inside’:

  •  ‘cuts inside’ is NOT off the ball
  • instead it is WITH the ball, as it needs high dribbling.

So we should NOT expect ‘cuts inside’ wingers to drift / move inside off the ball.

Instead they should stay wide, then when they receive the ball, cut inside + dribble inside with the ball. Thoughts? 

1 hour ago, BatiGoal said:

Or.. just thinking out loud here... or does it mean, well, is it defined by FMM as something they excel at but not necessarily do on their own unless instructed to?

It could be exactly that. Perhaps traits are what the player does well / is suitable for:

  • Can cross, but low dribbling + creativity? It’s better to pick a role where they can use ‘hugs line’, taking advantage of their high crossing (like a more limited Beckham).
  • Can cross AND dribble? It’s better to pick a role where they cut inside, to use their dribbling strengths.

Thoughts? 🙂 

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Stats Summary:

⚠️This adds uncertainty into the 4 experiments ⚠️ Lets look at the 2 wingers’ stats in each experiment … 
 

Experiment 1:
Narrow width - left winger (hugs line) vs right winger (moves into channels).

Similar number of crosses attempted 

9A67EC0E-A828-438B-8E16-D39C26CFB9B9.thumb.jpeg.d6b404125fa0a3ad95b5742f5e73eeb0.jpeg
2D416444-4948-4DBB-8740-872EB05441D9.thumb.jpeg.43917a330e20f92623f1b364915e052a.jpeg

 
Experiment 2:

WIDE width - left winger (hugs line) vs right winger (moves into channels). 

Similar number of crosses attempted (right winger / moves into channels has a few more)

9A67EC0E-A828-438B-8E16-D39C26CFB9B9.thumb.jpeg.d6b404125fa0a3ad95b5742f5e73eeb0.jpegE950AD93-3EF5-4D8D-9CE1-B9C0EBAD9129.thumb.jpeg.1719d6f521313c0a4f4fd643c479a3a2.jpeg

 
Experiment 3:

Narrow width - left winger (hugs line) vs right winger (cuts inside).

Similar number of crosses attempted (left winger / hugs line has a few more)

9A67EC0E-A828-438B-8E16-D39C26CFB9B9.thumb.jpeg.d6b404125fa0a3ad95b5742f5e73eeb0.jpegCD334D61-AC36-4960-B626-5E475BB2D889.thumb.jpeg.ed1ecec4a7476899c38c349796d4426e.jpeg

 
Experiment 4:

WIDE width - left winger (hugs line) vs right winger (cuts inside).

9A67EC0E-A828-438B-8E16-D39C26CFB9B9.thumb.jpeg.d6b404125fa0a3ad95b5742f5e73eeb0.jpeg5B450FBB-72CD-4AA4-9195-318D4F5A696D.thumb.jpeg.3428091b0f341478f2c207756880a95f.jpeg

⚠️ Left winger (hugs line) attempted a record 17 crosses, 10 more than the right winger (cuts inside) ⚠️ 
 

What does this mean? I’m not sure. Maybe another ‘experiment 5’ is needed … ?!

 

Edited by DanEnglish
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All very interesting!

Mind you I have a Cuts Inside / Moves into Channels LW (AML) who generally gets more crosses than my Hugs the Line / Runs with the Ball Down the Right RW. And the RW is on corners and I believe they are included as crosses in the stats, which puts the LW significantly ahead.

Of course they don't have tailored attributes or anything, but they are quite similar.

LW (Cuts Inside / Moves into Channels): 

image.png.3c40fa4529708ebb7b05a241a04d986b.png

RW (Hugs the Line / Runs with the Ball Down the Right):

image.png.cb395c29cc338cb32c1a99e407f61f1c.png

The LW has better Teamwork - perhaps they are more Unselfish and therefore cross more? And there are other hidden attributes that could be contributing here. And a bunch of other things too, such maybe my left sided IWB and CM are better than my right sided ones, meaning the ball goes down the left more? Makes it hard to isolate the effects of the traits.

Worth noting that the Cuts Inside player has Creativity of 15 vs only 13 for the Hugs the Lines player - backing up what you said in Discord about that being a differentiator. 

Also - I would be interested if your results above would have been different with Expressive on instead of Balanced Creative Freedom. Would that give them a little more lee way to indulge in their natural instincts / traits? Might be worth trying that in any future tests?

Anyway, excellently thought provoking as always!

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So, the traits are just there to make it look pretty? Is this the confirmation of the fear that I've head for a long time?

No! I refuse to believe! Hours upon hours of searching for players with perfect traits for my system were not just a waste of time! Don't crush my dreams like that 😭

P.s. great experiment. I'm glad someone finally decided to dive deeper into this. Personally, I'm of the similar opinion as @BatiGoal. We know that the traits have "triggers" (they require a certain attribute to be high enough for the trait to show), so simply said they are indicators/summary of players attributes, like @rseven said. With this in mind, I believe that players with traits simply do the same job better than the players without the traits.

However, is this the case for every trait? Are there no "unique" traits? The ones that dont require a certain attribute? 

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@Scratch - yes with a real team, your players will have different attributes (teamwork, etc), personalities (lazy, etc) + left/right footedness. So with any real team, these will make an impact.

With my customized ‘FC20’ team - ALL other players has 20/20 for mentals + 15/20 for physicals/technical attributes. Plus they are ALL both footed + ALL are the best personalities I could find (e.g. Tadic, Muller) - though there are sone personality differences.

Hopefully these customizations reduce their impact, for a fairer test 👍 

34 minutes ago, Scratch said:

Also - I would be interested if your results above would have been different with Expressive on instead of Balanced Creative Freedom. Would that give them a little more lee way to indulge in their natural instincts / traits? Might be worth trying that in any future tests?

Argh! That’s a great idea. Definitely should use for future / later tests 👍 

PS. @Scratch yes corners are definitely counted as crosses in the player stats screen.

Edited by DanEnglish
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2 minutes ago, BarnDoor said:

We know that the traits have "triggers" (they require a certain attribute to be high enough for the trait to show), so simply said they are indicators/summary of players attributes, like @rseven said.

As a note - ‘hugs line’ requires:

  • high crossing (15 or more)
  • low creativity (13 or less)
  • variable dribbling … *
  • MUST be natural (or green? I forget) in an AMR/L position
  • and is NOT green in any central position (ST, DM/M/AMC, DC)

* I think the logic is: if crossing is 15-16, then dribbling can’t be more than crossing. If crossing is 17-20, then dribbling can be anything up to 20 (I think) … so there ‘can’ be a limit to dribbling

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9 minutes ago, BarnDoor said:

However, is this the case for every trait? Are there no "unique" traits? The ones that dont require a certain attribute? 

I haven’t looked into it. I just picked these ones as they are easy + visual to test. Have others looked into it? 🙂 

Edited by DanEnglish
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7 minutes ago, BarnDoor said:

With this in mind, I believe that players with traits simply do the same job better than the players without the traits.

I agree. In position page, we can know which role are fit players traits by green highlight. Like transfer a maths home work to a reading homework

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47 minutes ago, BarnDoor said:

With this in mind, I believe that players with traits simply do the same job better than the players without the traits.

All else being equal, that's probably the thinking behind it. 

I suppose one could say it does no harm having players with such traits, or any green traits on their page, but I wouldn't necessarily place it high (if at all) on the priority list when shopping for players.

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More Experiments 

Welcome! To our new (edited) right winger - he has both ‘cuts inside’ AND ‘moves into channels

CFB80E23-B514-4BC2-9C3A-4419149428F4.thumb.jpeg.e5356c9affda050cf740c3eddc994fce.jpeg44AC1BBA-E961-49A5-BCF8-65BADF2F8093.thumb.jpeg.d6eec023a986e38ebd11b5ecf5b787bd.jpeg

Now we should REALLY see some differences with our left winger (hugs line) - right? … RIGHT?! 🙄 

Plus we have ‘creative’ freedom on (thanks @Scratch)
 

Experiment 5
Here’s our new setup - narrow + creative!

70A0096C-4E3F-4FDE-9F83-D4B4AD89D2A3.thumb.jpeg.15becee32226da116773c5f2adc7ab25.jpeg

Spoiler

Kickoff. With narrow width, both wingers are level with the penalty box.

25885833-346F-4212-A4C2-02530D989535.thumb.jpeg.ec60480182bd0efe9874c891d8e377a5.jpeg

Immediately after, both wingers drift inside.

C23D50C8-48BA-4A8A-9900-55A4E94EBB2E.thumb.jpeg.edccb1a6cc19c8ddb79f442ff4d55a5d.jpeg

They continue to drift inside all game.

673F2A29-2384-4B7B-9A71-6C27B4D61EC7.thumb.jpeg.d333f64796169230dc90c1d2d0bcd7da.jpeg

Left winger attempted 6 crosses, right winger only 2. Huh. 🤔 

6A7A31AC-9EE7-44D6-A9D9-7E54EEBA8A7C.thumb.png.78b946e4f5cbcd3021df47dd285cc737.png

 
Result: same as before, on narrow width, both wingers drift inside. Our right winger did cross a little less though 🤔 

 
Experiment 6
Here’s the key one. Wide width. But who will be wider … ?!

Spoiler

Our setup - wide width, creative, same formation.

4B6F6724-E39D-47FF-98CD-834138A427D4.thumb.jpeg.1b52003324c53596356c0d5295535a6f.jpeg

Kickoff. Both wingers start off wider…

74F7BC94-A2CA-4BC9-864A-251D05D5977A.thumb.jpeg.77854e634ff1f8db0f3e8ba37453af95.jpeg

… then both wingers drift even wider …

A6F13752-8EE0-4502-B1D6-EF3C38DD9CF4.thumb.jpeg.d319474f0e15d73f8564194ffe328ec1.jpeg

… and most of the game stayed wide …

BC08DD7D-3955-401C-A265-75F846C924CC.thumb.jpeg.bf1683b38c65216d4a909a5ce29296f2.jpeg

… except in the final third where BOTH wingers sometimes drifted inwards.

DD678C5F-87C1-41CF-B3B0-9A9A1D0669AB.thumb.jpeg.42264840ab01358a63d8843727393643.jpeg

… both wingers were barely involved. Equal.

214B70C1-6035-469D-A37F-1EEC8D411D14.thumb.png.35b15580660b1690ea9595d887c77687.png

 
Result: same as before. There was no difference between our ‘hugs line’ winger and our ‘cuts inside / moves into channels’ winger. Both moved in the same way / same width off the ball.  
 

OVERALL

  • ‘Creative’ freedom made no difference.
  • Having 2 traits on our right winger (cuts inside + moves into channels) made no difference off the ball.
  • Overall no difference between the two wingers.

Seems pretty clear to me. 

Thoughts?! 🙂 

Edited by DanEnglish
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1 hour ago, DanEnglish said:

Thoughts?!  🙂

Actually a lot of the discussion surrounding this involves 3 layers. Team Instructions, Role Instructions and Player Traits.

I'll be first to admit that I have no clue what weightage all 3 have. But if say Team Instructions (i.e. Wide vs Narrow) is predominant, then team instructions might be pushing the scales too far for player traits to factor. Perhaps a balanced width would reveal some trait differences?

At the very least, we have observed a similar occurrence before (though on a different layer). @sscout when using overlaps in his tactic, noted little difference between the WB vs FB role.

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4 hours ago, DanEnglish said:

Thoughts?! 🙂 

I'll grab the pitchfork, you guys get the torches and lets riot until we get working traits implemented?

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I don't have any data to support this, but I believe they play a role in players actions. I just can talk about what I see on match engine, tough.

As an example, I had João Félix in my BVB test (playing as centre midfielder in a B2B role) and he had a role trait of "arriving late to the area" or something like that. I saw that happening during games, he invaded the box a lot less than other B2Bs I had. Also, he would arrive to outside of the box to catch some loose balls to shoot.

Now, playing as Rayo Vallecano, I use Isi Palazón as right IF, he has the play one-twos role trait and I see him doing one-twos with teammates on the inside of the pitch. My left IF doesn't have it and he often runs down the left as an Winger.

Before all this, I had Cristiano Ronaldo always shooting when he had the ball, wherever he were. He had a role trait to shoot from long range or something like that, can't recall the exact words.

I've seen things that makes me believe they influence some of the players decisions. Of course, depending of the tactic, team instructions and all that, they could not do them all the time, but I believe that given the chance to do them, they will do.

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Well, @DanEnglish you've chosen to open the Pandora chest!

First of all, I have some questions on your tests.

Which are team instructions on attack?

Why attacking mentality, not balanced?

Then, as I see now, we need to see situation in combination. I think most important role plays tactical role on tactics screen. Player will behave on the field accordingly to that role. Since 'cuts inside' is no more red trait for winger, I think the player with that trait will stay off the ball like winger, but with the ball + 'dribble more' instruction into the final third will behave more like IF. That's only a suggestion, based on my previous experience with FMM. I remember very well the case of Daniel James in FMM21, where I played him like right IF, but he had red trait 'hugs the line'. And yes, in game he was staying wider with the ball and didn't cut inside like an IF.

Therefore I agree with the comments above - traits can help only in a suitable player's role and in combination with suitable team instructions. In my tactic's tests with MU, Bruno and Eriksen had 4-6 shots per game regular, but when I played VDB or Iqbal there, it was only 3-4.

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17 hours ago, Meow said:

But if say Team Instructions (i.e. Wide vs Narrow) is predominant, then team instructions might be pushing the scales too far for player traits to factor. Perhaps a balanced width would reveal some trait differences?

Even MORE Experiments?!

Let’s push this even further …

You are familiar with our “left winger” with the ‘hugs line’ trait …

Spoiler

6965D4CF-68B6-4F16-A573-85E07B1F3D3F.thumb.jpeg.ce68381515e1748464fe89b649176a47.jpeg0719BFF8-4087-4BC2-92D3-FE17878C2D1B.thumb.jpeg.cda43a96a2e4c03fadc4e49d6650dad5.jpeg

… well let’s introduce to our upgraded “RIGHT WINGER” - now two-footed, a natural across the M/AM/F RLC positions, plus still has ‘CUTS INSIDE’ + ‘MOVES INTO CHANNELS’

Spoiler

26F2A158-E133-4D61-9931-64593B2D903C.thumb.jpeg.ddee072273f57be66f7008787e98c1e7.jpegB7CFED65-138C-4398-8CD6-20EC3CED84C7.thumb.jpeg.5214d6468d9c9de014048719cc612015.jpeg

 
Experiment 7

Let’s see how these two perform on ‘normal’ width + ‘creative’ freedom …

F07D9240-EF4A-4E65-B20C-ED2D6273B9B0.thumb.jpeg.3fb914d28cf8242707403c8bfb5ae30a.jpeg

Kickoff. Not lickoff as I first typed. 

FFE63A50-4DEC-42A0-8F02-B440D93AC7C8.thumb.jpeg.954a28419e507261fa4454cb4a83f61f.jpeg

Immediately afterwards, both wingers move a little wider. Equal.

0E8231F2-DBA6-448F-B662-91EB8739C942.thumb.jpeg.e50dafd679ade71949046db4e37241bd.jpeg

Throughout this half - both wingers were fairly wide during the build up play (off the ball, when our team are in possession). Equal.

B5798DBB-AD4A-4096-B598-DF73577AAF0C.thumb.jpeg.a026c47ee8d5b77d4ee289f657f88af1.jpeg

But when we approach the final third - BOTH wingers drift inside. Equal.

7C84F149-4F97-4845-88F3-A2B207BA6515.thumb.jpeg.edb055e9090f980157330dab7cf890d1.jpeg

Match stats for anyone who has read this far - both wingers had 7 crosses. And the same number of passes. Spookily equal.

94527483-03E6-418F-B8C7-40E0EC42BE41.thumb.png.94b9277d33d30d9f77eca5327e102096.png

Results = Equal again. 

I tried to stack this experiment, really trying to push that right winger inside. But both wingers regained equally wide and equally moved inside. Oh dear!

Thoughts?! 🙂 

Edited by DanEnglish
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5 minutes ago, Reshetnikov said:

First of all, I have some questions on your tests.

Which are team instructions on attack?

Why attacking mentality, not balanced?

Great questions.

Team instructions in spoiler.

Spoiler

Defense:

6F79E4CD-F114-43DE-9236-013B2C672CD5.thumb.png.cf6a86f48f9c57f41ff9a76df6a9dae7.png

Attack:

69FAB800-27CC-4F01-81D7-199F8326DD91.thumb.png.b18b7bfc527ad834a8a40fee4aab65ca.png

My aim was to:

  • keep the ball as LONG as possible (so I can easily see passing moves & therefore Wingers’ movement)
  • plus keep the ball as CENTRAL as possible (so I can see the wingers’ movement equally, without it being too manipulated by the ball being on one flank). 

Why ‘Attacking’ mentality?

Spoiler
  • I have the belief that ‘contain’ mentality means the players take almost no risks - and so will stay in their defensive positions (e.g. a WB stays in the back four) …
  • … and ‘overload’ mentality is the highest risks - and so will always move towards their attacking positions (e.g. a WB moves forward to support the attack)
  • so ‘attacking’ mentality should show that attacking movement well - without being accused of being too extreme (overload)

🙂 

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11 minutes ago, DanEnglish said:

Great questions.

Team instructions in spoiler.

  Reveal hidden contents

Defense:

6F79E4CD-F114-43DE-9236-013B2C672CD5.thumb.png.cf6a86f48f9c57f41ff9a76df6a9dae7.png

Attack:

69FAB800-27CC-4F01-81D7-199F8326DD91.thumb.png.b18b7bfc527ad834a8a40fee4aab65ca.png

My aim was to:

  • keep the ball as LONG as possible (so I can easily see passing moves & therefore Wingers’ movement)
  • plus keep the ball as CENTRAL as possible (so I can see the wingers’ movement equally, without it being too manipulated by the ball being on one flank). 

Why ‘Attacking’ mentality?

  Reveal hidden contents
  • I have the belief that ‘contain’ mentality means the players take almost no risks - and so will stay in their defensive positions (e.g. a WB stays in the back four) …
  • … and ‘overload’ mentality is the highest risks - and so will always move towards their attacking positions (e.g. a WB moves forward to support the attack)
  • so ‘attacking’ mentality should show that attacking movement well - without being accused of being too extreme (overload)

🙂 

Then I have even more questions 😀 Don't you think 'work into the box' + 'play centre' influences winger's movement? + 'attacking' mentality is making from them players of attacking line => they tend to enter the opponent's box, not to deliver cross / support from the outside...

I'd like to see balanced mentality + no instruction on attacking third at all, I think this will be more independent test. 🙂 also, are you sure that 'hugs the line' and 'cuts inside' are rightfully opposite traits? Since I don't see it red for the winger role. i.e. Daniel James, as winger, has 'hugs the line' and IT'S NOT green for that role, BUT in IF role this trait will be marked as red.

Nevertheless, it's a great topic and thanks for all the tests and data!

Edited by Reshetnikov
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1 minute ago, Reshetnikov said:

are you sure that 'hugs the line' and 'cuts inside' are rightfully opposite traits?

Good questions. I wasn’t sure. So had BOTH ‘cuts inside’ AND ‘moves into channels’ on the right winger.

  • I used to think ‘cuts inside’ was the opposite, but I realize now that is wrong - as it’s likely an ‘on the ball’ trait, as needs high dribbling.
  • I ‘guess’ (hope?) that ‘moves into channels’ is an opposite to ‘hugs line’ as both are off-the-ball movements when the team are in possession

If you have a better alternative - I’ll happily take a look. For the rest of your post - let me look at that now

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22 minutes ago, DanEnglish said:

Good questions. I wasn’t sure. So had BOTH ‘cuts inside’ AND ‘moves into channels’ on the right winger.

  • I used to think ‘cuts inside’ was the opposite, but I realize now that is wrong - as it’s likely an ‘on the ball’ trait, as needs high dribbling.
  • I ‘guess’ (hope?) that ‘moves into channels’ is an opposite to ‘hugs line’ as both are off-the-ball movements when the team are in possession

If you have a better alternative - I’ll happily take a look. For the rest of your post - let me look at that now

Just a proposal - to take two IFs, one (LW) with left foot + 'hugs the line' trait, another (RW) also with the left foot + 'moves into the channels' + 'cuts inside' traits. That's where 'hugs the line' will be definitely opposite to the player's role and can influence his movement and behaviour on the pitch. And balanced mentality and no team instructions in the final third, but this is debatable.

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49 minutes ago, Reshetnikov said:

Then I have even more questions 😀 Don't you think 'work into the box' + 'play centre' influences winger's movement? + 'attacking' mentality is making from them players of attacking line => they tend to enter the opponent's box, not to deliver cross / support from the outside...

Experiment 8
Argh! When will it stop?! 
 

Same players as experiment 7. But with BALANCED mentality + NO final third instructions + MIXED passing. Tough crowd 🤪

Spoiler

D4B66AC4-FCD3-403F-BE89-B7A226DE0075.thumb.jpeg.e1fd6a3bc11871f8419b29e77b9afbd7.jpegC21E7C6F-6377-48BE-BA99-7EBC296A3852.thumb.jpeg.89b51e4c953a1d5215120242974c858e.jpegAFDB22A8-E6C5-43E5-979B-A359FCEADEB3.thumb.jpeg.5304c975dc7dc367702d461052a4444d.jpeg

 
Kickoff. I’m running out of different standard colors for each experiment!

F3FCBDF6-5B25-47AB-BB4F-39A22F886B12.thumb.jpeg.fe899406b19bae3322b94412432ccfde.jpeg

So is one winger wider than the other?! (in possession, off the ball)

Spoiler

A88C7AE5-8C27-4DD0-A341-757873082A0C.thumb.jpeg.5c4a349294a44cae4871f7f3f4184820.jpeg

No.

BC5685FB-FA47-41F4-B799-A6B8B4039318.thumb.jpeg.cad3826a8aca244730e300887d5c1a58.jpeg

No.

E63F1E52-C0F1-442D-AA2B-36A88CC7CF05.thumb.jpeg.4af4a54d8838a77f248bcecb77927aa0.jpeg

Oh slightly wider! Ah. But the ball was on that flank. That happens on both flanks. Same.

44AF78E8-35D1-48AD-B5E8-45402DAC94D7.thumb.jpeg.d2c38c86ca54ee2b18d53888ec4dcdbf.jpeg

No difference.

6681A863-83B3-44F0-BE55-9584413034DC.thumb.jpeg.9f254f57896b31ca02aec6516502356a.jpeg

Still no difference.

 
Results = no difference. 
 

14 minutes ago, Reshetnikov said:

Just a proposal - to take two IFs, one (LW) with left foot + 'hugs the line' trait, another (RW) also with the left foot + 'moves into the channels' + 'cuts inside' traits.

Maybe one of you can design + run slightly different experiments … and maybe you’ll get some different results?

However these experiments are pretty clear so far.

Thoughts?! 🙂 

Edited by DanEnglish
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55 minutes ago, Reshetnikov said:

Just a proposal - to take two IFs, one (LW) with left foot + 'hugs the line' trait, another (RW) also with the left foot + 'moves into the channels' + 'cuts inside' traits. That's where 'hugs the line' will be definitely opposite to the player's role and can influence his movement and behaviour on the pitch. And balanced mentality and no team instructions in the final third, but this is debatable.

Experiment 9
Help! They just won’t stop *sob* *sob*


What happens if you made the right winger left-footed + a natural in the other flank … ?

C8383C2B-D748-400A-9667-2B28B2124091.thumb.jpeg.5fda14e0715107fcb767317fee58d322.jpeg

… and out both wingers upfront as IFs?!

5CD15526-1BB7-4622-879A-B29C94FBCC51.thumb.jpeg.aa704f8c706087ac76b3b278edbfbc20.jpeg

 
You asked for this. Welcome to our 8th choice “hot pink” kit. It’s not a best seller.

0F9DA1E4-DA0A-4938-8E56-46C0DB092F79.thumb.jpeg.e81e0794691c981ad7cca8dec0454689.jpeg

Any change with the wingers - sorry - IFs?!

063DCDAA-5926-402D-A2DE-4858EE611B4F.thumb.jpeg.31246799bdf62ffdb5a243c5397365c4.jpeg

Nope. Still equal.

AA64F0A3-19CC-4B9C-98DF-05F140C6B809.thumb.jpeg.aeed2309d28d2d612bfa689b37d139c5.jpeg

Still equal. And VERY narrow. All game long.

Surely this settles it … unless … 😲 …

Spoiler

… someone else does a different experiment! 🙂 

Edited by DanEnglish
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@DanEnglish Ran an experiment myself. I was looking into whether the behaviour of these types of players (played as W) changes if it's a FB or WB behind them. I even swapped around midfield roles to see if the behaviour of the player changes. They played the same.

Slight hiccup and played a Moves Into Opposition Area player instead of Cuts Inside, that's experiment 1.

 

Experiment 1

Right Winger with Hugs Line vs Left Winger with Moves Into Opposition Area

Spoiler

Winger releases ball to FB

Screenshot_2023-03-15-17-02-05-93.thumb.png.9c5ba55c51acbda6942e0d173105756e.png

 

Post kickoff, they hold the same width

Screenshot_2023-03-15-17-03-17-59.thumb.png.ba2497737cfc2526f5751aa38627eff3.png

 

Right full-back in possession attack

Screenshot_2023-03-15-17-03-51-67.thumb.png.fba6d9b8ad6e4fb210732687b499f9ea.png

 

Experiment 2

Right Winger with Hugs Line vs Left Winger with Cuts Inside

Right BBM+Right FB vs Left DLP+Left WB

Spoiler

Left Winger on the ball, right winger stays wide

Screenshot_2023-03-15-17-14-08-92.thumb.png.b29bc4362e7b672e87a68f03b43a44b8.png
 

Left Winger on the ball, right winger stays wide

 

Screenshot_2023-03-15-17-10-49-21.png

Right FB in possession, Left Winger cuts inside.

Screenshot_2023-03-15-17-15-50-23.thumb.png.bd825660d800f49f37b06ab9c3950cab.png

 

Experiment 3

Right Winger with Hugs Line vs Left Winger with Cuts Inside

Right DLP+Right WB vs Left BBM+Left FB

Spoiler

Left FB in possession, left winger kinda wide

Screenshot_2023-03-15-17-22-47-38.thumb.png.16640a3eb8e6191144312d08a56a74a9.png

 

Right WB in possession, right W really wide.

Screenshot_2023-03-15-17-26-19-08.thumb.png.bd1bc4b6e253f10785c20f491e553bf9.png

 

Right WB in possession, Right Winger really wide again. Left Winger really narrow.

Screenshot_2023-03-15-17-24-00-90.thumb.png.d177617e52a4a0b8dd906e40fab4e9a5.png

 

Summary

Definitely not an exhaustive experiment (obviously), but given the limited data points the best winger data I have is all the highlights I've seen in my regular gameplay would be the non-HugsLine Winger on the right side. 

These are very small handful of things I can say with some confidence.

1. Right WB/FB very often underlaps the Right Winger Hugs Line. I've never seen Duque underlap like that, and this is his 4th season here.

Spoiler

Screenshot_2023-03-15-17-02-05-93.thumb.png.9c5ba55c51acbda6942e0d173105756e.png

I am also fairly certain I have never seen a non-HugsLine Winger go this wide unpressured (no fullbacks pressing), then opting to release the ball like that.

 

2. On the flip side, my usual non-HugsLine winger does wedge in like that to take on a centreback against a back 3.

Spoiler

Screenshot_2023-03-15-17-24-00-90.thumb.png.d177617e52a4a0b8dd906e40fab4e9a5.png

In my 3 runs, I've not seen the HugsLine winger do this

 

3. Everything before the final third, both players basically hold the same width, likely as a result of the winger role (which definitely seems to be the case, given your multiple experiments corroborate this)

Spoiler

Screenshot_2023-03-15-17-03-17-59.thumb.png.ba2497737cfc2526f5751aa38627eff3.png

 

 

4.  I am certain is the Forward drifting affects the positioning of both wingers a lot. I do hope that I've kept the screenshot to specific situations where the striker is central.

Edited by Meow
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1 minute ago, rseven said:

Screenshot_20230315_184336.thumb.jpg.50ad245e0cff91d6206ed4390e455d0b.jpg

These two are not equal IMO.

Half of box is much different

You are correct 😂 

In the 1st image - the ball is being played to the left flank, so the team shifts slightly to the left.

In the 2nd image -  it’s the “left winger” who is slightly closer to the middle - that’s the winger with ‘hugs line’ and should (theoretically) be wider!

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As someone relatively inexperienced with the game (relative to you guys posting here haha) and as someone that doesn't own the editor, I was wondering a few things:

 

Is it possible that traits like 'Hugs Line' may be more on-ball than expected - like with 'Cuts Inside'? Would someone with the 'Hugs Line' trait tend to dribble more up the wing than someone with 'Cuts Inside', or, even stays outside more than someone with no traits?

I was thinking if it affects on-ball more, it might be interesting to set the passing to 'Both Flanks' to do the exact opposite of your reasoning for keeping it central (i.e. force the players to be more directly involved):

9 hours ago, DanEnglish said:

plus keep the ball as CENTRAL as possible (so I can see the wingers’ movement equally, without it being too manipulated by the ball being on one flank). 

 

I was also wondering how it affects other's movements (like @Meow said with the Right WB/FB underlapping more). Does this trait "inform" the wide backs that they have more space to underlap vs. when the winger has 'Cuts Inside' (or no traits, as mentioned above)?

 

Overall, I would like to see if/how these traits affect dribbling & teammate movements as part of the experiments - if that's okay :)@DanEnglish

I hope that something like 'Both Flanks' passing could lure those behaviors out. I really like the investigative journalism being done here.

 

P.S. I would like to request Green (dark and/or light) as the team color, if I may.

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 @drueter Interesting that you mention that, for most of my experiments, my trigger to pay attention is when the FB or W is in possession.

17 hours ago, DanEnglish said:

plus keep the ball as CENTRAL as possible (so I can see the wingers’ movement equally, without it being too manipulated by the ball being on one flank). 

I looked at all the screenshots taken by Dan, and it's mostly with the ball CENTRALLY. These are all of them

Spoiler

For this one, the GIF ends when the Left Back touches it unfortunately

DF91795D-37A5-4DF4-8F17-906BA45DE1D7.gif.e0a6514e79cdc571f0803f13acae8444.gif

 

This is one datapoint that aligns with what I am showing. While the ball is on the opposite flank, 7 does cut in the final third looking for space between the FB and CB.

28A4B36A-89F0-4CEA-8271-12DDE191FDA5.gif.330803f0cce065103ef54038399cac7a.gif

 

This one the left winger just did a backpass, so it's not exactly the best datapoint to consider

0F881F30-F966-492B-AE0D-2ED8FDEEDCE0.gif.9c91de78a7fdd61d52b5cbd84f1a1e89.gif

 

I compiled a set of screenshots from 1 game, all of them are from a similar type of play. RB first touch, RB last touch before pass and then RW first touch. Compared them with this interesting instance from Experiment 2.

Instance 1 (from Experiment 2 with HugsLine winger):

Spoiler

RB first touch

Screenshot_2023-03-15-19-20-09-91.thumb.png.59898dc8c08f87695312cf6587e8183f.png

 

RB last touch

Screenshot_2023-03-15-19-20-40-24.thumb.png.0c822ead6961e9ec1ac51599889d78eb.png

 

RW first touch

Screenshot_2023-03-15-19-21-48-99.thumb.png.1e8d5f02489e66e693ed820d795ab79a.png

This one is a highlight I noted in particular, as I am familiar with how a non-HugsLine winger would play. A situation where the opponent FB isn't applying much pressure, yet the winger opts to push wider doesn't really occur.

 

Experiment 4 (all non-HugsLine winger)

Took all instances where the right back is given the ball, with the exception of one cause formation was very disrupted by a freekick.

 

Instance 2:

A good middle-third screenshot, same phase of play. On RB's first touch the formation is less disrupted than the Instance 1, but I think at the pass the positions are incredibly similar for all the other players except the opponent FB pressing my RB instead of staying back.

Spoiler

RB first touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-40-37-73.thumb.png.41225e48947b60537ea27d36087fdd52.png

 

RB last touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-43-01-37.thumb.png.aa8df12236bb93917eb139f4e12f3c5f.png

 

RW first touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-44-10-63.thumb.png.dd95ff87e1d499bdafe5c5907b7a8aa0.png

I would say that given a lack of pressure on the winger in both instances, I would consider this an ok data point? The non-HugsLine winger is more in line with the RB, rather than kissing the line.

 

Instance 3:

Similar-ish middle third highlight again. Box-to-box midfielder is a little wider in this highlight. RB drives quicker for this one, and the overall formation is deeper and more central overall. Opponent FB is actually applying some pressure, but not committing in.

Spoiler

RB first touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-45-07-17.thumb.png.11b31e0d2b4f50dd5c34d119f5fb073d.png

 

RB last touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-47-22-14.thumb.png.38e5f9664a23dd8496d0f09ace44b1ac.png

 

RW first touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-47-44-28.thumb.png.20db0de22cfdb52117968ce72b6cb050.png

I do think this instance is a good data point as well, albeit the whole formation is not as shifted to the flank. Non-HugsLine winger opted to stand inward of RB despite pressure from opponent.

 

Instance 4:

A little more advanced at first touch, but everything else has very similar positioning. Opponent FB sitting back.

Spoiler

RB first touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-49-32-74.png

 

RB last touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-49-44-10.thumb.png.972fb5b77746bf7242131a9e76bc0376.png
 

RW first touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-49-51-04.thumb.png.f5bcea7a145effb91157869d1c7f5efd.png

The non-HugsLine winger is actually opting to peel off the FB much wider. To be fair, this is a fairly common thing to see for both HugsLine and non-HugsLine wingers.

In any case, ST is in about same position as Instance 1, but my RB, RCM and W are all narrower. Ultimately, you could say "The HugsLine winger is pushing the formation wider" or "Nah he's only wide because everyone else is wider"

 

Instance 5:

More advanced than Instance 1 again. I think overall both sides are much narrower. And it looks more like my non-HugsLine winger is actually putting the pressure on the opponent FB, threatening to squeeze between him and the CB.

Spoiler

RB first touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-51-11-19.thumb.png.4697278bbf5374ab16810a5e8ef90e69.png
 

RB last touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-51-43-59.thumb.png.8d12fa87db007294443ba82c3f99a56a.png

 

RW first touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-51-55-94.thumb.png.a67a5a7997e5ba9ae034627d01ef3608.png

Not sure how to take this data point tbh. Both teams are indeed narrower. I would say the HugsLine winger does sometimes pressure the FB, but I didn't see anything this narrow and this much further in from the 3 experiments I ran with him.

 

Instance 6:

Admittedly, much more advanced than Instance 1 and much narrower. Forget opponent FB, non-HugsLine winger is pressuring the centreback.

Spoiler

RB STARTS HIGHLIGHT WITH THE BALL

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-53-44-93.thumb.png.bbdc20fc0a9b107ac51d3801e5607d5d.png

 

RB last touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-54-46-68.thumb.png.b3fd5a4870e145f87a58d6aa888aa67b.png
 

RW first touch

Screenshot_2023-03-16-08-55-02-71.thumb.png.4b5023e0621b093653e353cbea7566cb.png

Same as previous, not sure what to make of it. The non-HugsLine winger is further in than not just the RB, but my RCM.

 

Conclusion

I took every highlight where the ball gets passed to the RB, with the exception of 1 greatly disrupted by a free kick. From my experience using a non-HugsLine winger, I would say Instances 2-6 are fairly characteristic of what they tend to do.

I do think it is both "player traits do nothing" and "player traits play a small subtle part" are feasible. I suppose now it depends on how you interpret Instances 5 and 6. Is my non-HugsLine winger showing tendencies I didn't see the HugsLine winger do in 3 matches and making the opponent go narrower? Or is he narrower because the opponent happens to be narrower on that highlight?

Now I'm thinking of running just 1 more experiment with a HugsLine winger instead. hopefully getting maybe 4-5 instances of this particular play (RB receives the ball, see how RW moves).

Edited by Meow
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