Off Topic English football

[billy2shots]

Personally and I could be way off the mark, but I just think Liverpool's form is a simple case of luck running out. 

Now don't confuse that with me saying Liverpool's success is solely based on luck, that's not my point.

What I'm trying to say is that for the last 2 seasons I think all the stars aligned perfectly for Liverpool. 

- Amazing injury record, pretty much fully fit (key players at least) throughout that time. 

- Amazing shot to goal success for Mane and Salah

- TAA and Robbo completing a huge amount of crosses / square balls leading to goals

- Fortune flavouring Liverpool with the majority of 50/50 VAR calls. Don't get this point confused with me accusing Liverpool of getting ALL VAR decisions, but the majority of those 'could go either way' calls went their way. 

 

This season the injuries have been more in line with the 'normal' , well what's normal for us City fans. Don't forget we were breaking records with no left back for 2 seasons (Fabian Delph) anyone. Fernandinho had a season at CB. Even this season, Aguero has played 120 minutes of league (I think or that might be all games) so far and Jesus has missed a huge chunk. KDB was also missing for 3/4 of a season recently. 

We don't even need to talk about kompany's injury history. 

 

As for VAR calls, as a city fan, Liverpool have absolutely nothing to worry about on that front. Sure everyone got their knickers in a twist this week when City scored a perfectly legal goal. Unfortunately that same law was not enforced in the CL when Liverpool again got the 50/50 from Milner knocking the ball backwards for us to score (subsequently wrongly disallowed). 

 

Liverpool not being creative and looking 'boring' again isn't anything new. They haven't been creative for years. 

This is an over simplification of things but in general Liverpool's attacks have two main themes. 

The centre backs or Hendo going long (direct) to Salah or Mane to run at the opposing team and score or create havoc which leads to a goal. 

Or

The centre backs or Hendo going long (direct) to the advanced fullbacks who then square the ball for the front 3. 

 

There is obviously a lot of skill involved in the above but it's an  extremely limited way of playing especially when those two (very similar) ways of attacking are nullified. 

 

 

 

[Aaron Thornton]

3 hours ago, billy2shots said:

Personally and I could be way off the mark, but I just think Liverpool's form is a simple case of luck running out. 

Now don't confuse that with me saying Liverpool's success is solely based on luck, that's not my point.

What I'm trying to say is that for the last 2 seasons I think all the stars aligned perfectly for Liverpool. 

- Amazing injury record, pretty much fully fit (key players at least) throughout that time. 

- Amazing shot to goal success for Mane and Salah

- TAA and Robbo completing a huge amount of crosses / square balls leading to goals

- Fortune flavouring Liverpool with the majority of 50/50 VAR calls. Don't get this point confused with me accusing Liverpool of getting ALL VAR decisions, but the majority of those 'could go either way' calls went their way. 

 

This season the injuries have been more in line with the 'normal' , well what's normal for us City fans. Don't forget we were breaking records with no left back for 2 seasons (Fabian Delph) anyone. Fernandinho had a season at CB. Even this season, Aguero has played 120 minutes of league (I think or that might be all games) so far and Jesus has missed a huge chunk. KDB was also missing for 3/4 of a season recently. 

We don't even need to talk about kompany's injury history. 

 

As for VAR calls, as a city fan, Liverpool have absolutely nothing to worry about on that front. Sure everyone got their knickers in a twist this week when City scored a perfectly legal goal. Unfortunately that same law was not enforced in the CL when Liverpool again got the 50/50 from Milner knocking the ball backwards for us to score (subsequently wrongly disallowed). 

 

Liverpool not being creative and looking 'boring' again isn't anything new. They haven't been creative for years. 

This is an over simplification of things but in general Liverpool's attacks have two main themes. 

The centre backs or Hendo going long (direct) to Salah or Mane to run at the opposing team and score or create havoc which leads to a goal. 

Or

The centre backs or Hendo going long (direct) to the advanced fullbacks who then square the ball for the front 3. 

 

There is obviously a lot of skill involved in the above but it's an  extremely limited way of playing especially when those two (very similar) ways of attacking are nullified. 

 

 

 

Look at the xG table from last season and it paints a picture, they got 24 points more than expected meaning teams weren't taking their chances against Liverpool and Liverpool were scoring almost every attempt they had. 

 

[Ian]

Liverpool have always been lucky, that’s how they’ve won so much.

[Aaron Thornton]

25 minutes ago, Ian said:

Liverpool have always been lucky, that’s how they’ve won so much.

Same. 😉

[Ashez]

1 hour ago, Aaron Thornton said:

Look at the xG table from last season and it paints a picture, they got 24 points more than expected meaning teams weren't taking their chances against Liverpool and Liverpool were scoring almost every attempt they had. 

 

Because Becker is legit, even if Adrian played a stupid amount of games as well. 

If we had two VAR calls we should of had off the top my head (Everton goal + Newcastle pen) we'd be top the league.

Football is small margins, you lot should be delighted we ran out of gas and have been poor for 5 matches as otherwise the league would be over ffs. We've been shit since Xmas, before that no-one kept our pace. Late goals to West Brom and Burnley, a decent draw against the team top the league and a defeat to a good Saints side isn't going to define our season. 

[Ian]

3 hours ago, Aaron Thornton said:

Same. 😉

Yep, you’re lucky too. I said yesterday about how Man U and Liverpool were the most supported and most successful teams in the country. Wasn’t meant to come across as arrogant as most would surely admit that. If we or you are shite then it’s big news and it’s the same the other way.

I’m not a stats man myself and prefer to go with what I see and hear. I’ve nothing against the stats though but I prefer to leave that to the experts. From what I’m seeing of xG and please correct me if I’m wrong as I probably am but it seems like it doesn’t take into consideration who the players are. As an example; you could have a chance that they put a percentage on but if one striker is say Marco van Basten and the other is say Marlon Harewood (no disrespect) you can see how ridiculous it is. That’s without going into who the keepers are as Ashes pointed out. I may be off on this but it’ll have to be something about how xG is different to what I’m believing before I’ll take much from it I have to say. In fact, perhaps plenty of managers bought into that over the last few years and klopp didn’t; just a thought.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Ian

[broodje kip]

2 minutes ago, Ian said:

Yep, you’re lucky too. I said yesterday about how Man U and Liverpool were the most supported and most successful teams in the country. Wasn’t meant to come across as arrogant as most would surely admit that. If we or you are shite then it’s big news and it’s the same the other way.

I’m not a stats man myself and prefer to go with what I see and hear. I’ve nothing against the stats though but I prefer to leave that to the experts. From what I’m seeing of xG and please correct me if I’m wrong as I probably am but it seems that it doesn’t take into consideration who the players are. As an example; you could have a chance that they put a percentage on but if one striker is say Marco van Basten and the other is say Marlon Harewood (no disrespect) you can see how ridiculous it is. That’s without going into who the keepers are as Ashes pointed out. I may be off on this but it’ll have to be something about how xG is different to what I’m believing before I’ll take much from it I have to say. In fact, perhaps plenty of managers bought into that over the last few years and klopp didn’t; just a thought.

If I wasn’t mistaken, xG do contribute a little bit to who the players were. Lets say Sergio Aguero and Gabriel Jesus facing the same goal keeper in the same position and situation, Aguero would’ve a slightly higher xG due to him being the more clinical.

[Ian]

17 minutes ago, broodje kip said:

If I wasn’t mistaken, xG do contribute a little bit to who the players were. Lets say Sergio Aguero and Gabriel Jesus facing the same goal keeper in the same position and situation, Aguero would’ve a slightly higher xG due to him being the more clinical.

Fair enough but I have a feeling it’ll be ruined in many a season just like it seemed to be last year based on the previous comments so I won’t be bothering with it.

[Rob]

Poor Marlon Harewood.

[billy2shots]

Football is an emotive subject especially when people are talking about your club. It's natural to automatically go on the defensive even when there isn't the need. 

I'll give another example of my original point. 

Leicester City. What Leicester did in winning the League was nothing short of amazing. In football terms not much touched it this decade or even century (all be it only 20 years in do far). But.........

...... Let's also be realistic. For that miracle to take place all the planets had to align perfectly. 

- A journeyman manager had to suddenly get a tune out of a group of players for a single season like he hadn't before or hasn't since. 

- A large proportion of the squad all had the best single season of their lives all at the same time. They couldn't ever reach that standard in their careers prior or post. Sure Vardy, Kante, Kaspar, Mahrez have established themselves as good players but for each of them there are three others like Huth, Simpson, Morgan, Drinkwater, Okasaki, Ritchie De Laet, Andy King, Matty James, Nathan Dyer, Ulloa etc etc

- They needed the established teams to be way off the pace, City, Chelsea , Utd. 

- They needed the second tier teams (at that time, calm down Liverpool fans) Arsenal, Tottenham, Liverpool not to take advantage of the situation. 

- In premiership history they needed a lower than average points total to be enough to grab the top spot. 

 

 

Now you can be flippant and say that I'm being disrespectful and claiming Leicester winning the League was all down to luck but again that's not my point.

1. Those players , roused by Captain Morgan could have dug deep enough to play beyond their natural level all season. 

2. Claudio may have spent endless sleepless nights planning each game to perfection to get the results. 

3. How poor the other teams were had nothing to do with Leicester that's just down to poor management of those teams. 

 

Any single one of those points means it wasn't luck that Leicester won the league but even the purist must admit that for all 3 of those points to happen at the same time involved a good dollop of luck. 

 

That' brings us back to Liverpool. I didn't say they were lucky because VAR gave them the 50/50 tight calls. I didn't say they were lucky because their injury record was great, I didn't say they were lucky because Salah and Mane, hell even Firmino were converting at a  high success rate, I didn't say they were lucky because City were well off the pace last year.

 

I said their luck ran out this season as I do think luck played a part last season when all of those above things happed at the same time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Woody]

3 hours ago, billy2shots said:

Football is an emotive subject especially when people are talking about your club. It's natural to automatically go on the defensive even when there isn't the need. 

I'll give another example of my original point. 

Leicester City. What Leicester did in winning the League was nothing short of amazing. In football terms not much touched it this decade or even century (all be it only 20 years in do far). But.........

...... Let's also be realistic. For that miracle to take place all the planets had to align perfectly. 

- A journeyman manager had to suddenly get a tune out of a group of players for a single season like he hadn't before or hasn't since. 

- A large proportion of the squad all had the best single season of their lives all at the same time. They couldn't ever reach that standard in their careers prior or post. Sure Vardy, Kante, Kaspar, Mahrez have established themselves as good players but for each of them there are three others like Huth, Simpson, Morgan, Drinkwater, Okasaki, Ritchie De Laet, Andy King, Matty James, Nathan Dyer, Ulloa etc etc

- They needed the established teams to be way off the pace, City, Chelsea , Utd. 

- They needed the second tier teams (at that time, calm down Liverpool fans) Arsenal, Tottenham, Liverpool not to take advantage of the situation. 

- In premiership history they needed a lower than average points total to be enough to grab the top spot. 

 

 

Now you can be flippant and say that I'm being disrespectful and claiming Leicester winning the League was all down to luck but again that's not my point.

1. Those players , roused by Captain Morgan could have dug deep enough to play beyond their natural level all season. 

2. Claudio may have spent endless sleepless nights planning each game to perfection to get the results. 

3. How poor the other teams were had nothing to do with Leicester that's just down to poor management of those teams. 

 

Any single one of those points means it wasn't luck that Leicester won the league but even the purist must admit that for all 3 of those points to happen at the same time involved a good dollop of luck. 

 

That' brings us back to Liverpool. I didn't say they were lucky because VAR gave them the 50/50 tight calls. I didn't say they were lucky because their injury record was great, I didn't say they were lucky because Salah and Mane, hell even Firmino were converting at a  high success rate, I didn't say they were lucky because City were well off the pace last year.

 

I said their luck ran out this season as I do think luck played a part last season when all of those above things happed at the same time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can we not just say that Leicester had by far the better team ethic and worked harder than any other team did that season?

Look at when Blackburn won it....didn't have the best squad by any means but they had cohesion and a manager to bring them together. Yes they had Shearer and Sutton but it does happen.

 

[Woody]

@RichD the mill is open again mate! 😂😂 let the rumors begin.

[Rich]

14 minutes ago, Woody said:

@RichD the mill is open again mate! 😂😂 let the rumors begin.

I know, ever since Saudi Arabia and Quatar sorted there problems out a couple of weeks ago, I can’t help but feel like something may be going on. But I am trying not to get drawn in. Rafa leaving is making it hard 😂

[FuddledFox]

Rafa is probably going to replace Wilder.

[Rich]

15 minutes ago, FuddledFox said:

Rafa is probably going to replace Wilder.

No he won’t, you naughty little Fox!

[FuddledFox]

3 minutes ago, RichD said:

No he won’t, you naughty little Fox!

He might fancy Chelsea again as he won’t be abused by the fans for a while.

[Woody]

44 minutes ago, RichD said:

I know, ever since Saudi Arabia and Quatar sorted there problems out a couple of weeks ago, I can’t help but feel like something may be going on. But I am trying not to get drawn in. Rafa leaving is making it hard 😂

Exactly. I think the prem not releasing their findings as too not get sued makes me think they fucked us over and know they are in the shit.

[samhardy]

Rafa’s record since leaving Liverpool.

• Sacked by Inter after less than a year for being shit.
• Hounded out by Chelsea after less than a year.
• Took Napoli backwards and then Sarri replaced him and did a much better job.
• Lasted about 3 months at Real Madrid.
• Took Newcastle down (plenty of time to save them) and then won the Championship with the biggest budget the division has ever seen.
• Admitted his career was over by going to China.

He has absolutely played Newcastle fans like a fiddle and the best thing is they genuinely believe he 

A) Loves the club.

B) Would be the man to turn them around now.

[broodje kip]

4 minutes ago, samhardy said:

Rafa’s record since leaving Liverpool.

• Sacked by Inter after less than a year for being shit.
• Hounded out by Chelsea after less than a year.
• Took Napoli backwards and then Sarri replaced him and did a much better job.
• Lasted about 3 months at Real Madrid.
• Took Newcastle down (plenty of time to save them) and then won the Championship with the biggest budget the division has ever seen.
• Admitted his career was over by going to China.

He has absolutely played Newcastle fans like a fiddle and the best thing is they genuinely believe he 

A) Loves the club.

B) Would be the man to turn them around now.

I mean look at the kind of guy that supports Newcastle, @RichD

[Rich]

3 minutes ago, samhardy said:

Rafa’s record since leaving Liverpool.

• Sacked by Inter after less than a year for being shit.
• Hounded out by Chelsea after less than a year.
• Took Napoli backwards and then Sarri replaced him and did a much better job.
• Lasted about 3 months at Real Madrid.
• Took Newcastle down (plenty of time to save them) and then won the Championship with the biggest budget the division has ever seen.
• Admitted his career was over by going to China.

He has absolutely played Newcastle fans like a fiddle and the best thing is they genuinely believe he 

A) Loves the club.

B) Would be the man to turn them around now.

• To be fair, hard going to any team that’s just won the champions league and if you look at the average age of that inter squad, it was 31/32, they were never going to reach any heights again.
• chelsea fans hated him for his time with Liverpool is why he left, his record there wasn’t even bad.
• Napoli maybe he could have done a bit better but he still won over half his matches there.
• Real Madrid he won 17 of 25 games and they were 2nd, only losing 3. Are we really going to judge barely any Real Madrid manager around that time? They were sacking for fun!
• He improved every player at Newcastle, every player looked half decent and gave 100% every game. We have a better squad now than he ever had at his disposal.

We will never agree on him 😁

[billy2shots]

1 hour ago, Woody said:

Can we not just say that Leicester had by far the better team ethic and worked harder than any other team did that season?

Look at when Blackburn won it....didn't have the best squad by any means but they had cohesion and a manager to bring them together. Yes they had Shearer and Sutton but it does happen.

 

You see I wouldn't personally put them in the same bracket. 

 

Jack Walker pumped a huge amount of money into Blackburn to assemble that team. Sure it's not what the big boys do today but the signing of Shearer at the time was a British record. 

Leicester's achievement was far superior in my humble opinion. 

[FuddledFox]

13 minutes ago, samhardy said:

Admitted his career was over by going to China.

Only just kept the club he managed in China up as well.

“Dalian narrowly avoided dropping out of the division in the 2020 season, finishing 12th after a series of relegation play-offs.”

[Woody]

42 minutes ago, billy2shots said:

You see I wouldn't personally put them in the same bracket. 

 

Jack Walker pumped a huge amount of money into Blackburn to assemble that team. Sure it's not what the big boys do today but the signing of Shearer at the time was a British record. 

Leicester's achievement was far superior in my humble opinion. 

Compared to Man Utd at the time they didnt spend that much.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/when-saturday-comes-blog/2013/oct/23/blackburn-premier-league-title-earned-1995

[Woody]

1 hour ago, samhardy said:

Rafa’s record since leaving Liverpool.

• Sacked by Inter after less than a year for being shit.
• Hounded out by Chelsea after less than a year.
• Took Napoli backwards and then Sarri replaced him and did a much better job.
• Lasted about 3 months at Real Madrid.
• Took Newcastle down (plenty of time to save them) and then won the Championship with the biggest budget the division has ever seen.
• Admitted his career was over by going to China.

He has absolutely played Newcastle fans like a fiddle and the best thing is they genuinely believe he 

A) Loves the club.

B) Would be the man to turn them around now.

I like Rafa alot but i dont think he is the answer. He is better than what we have now.... totally.

The whole club need changing starting with the fat arse upstairs and untill that happens nowt will change and not even a half decent a Rafa will change that.

 

[Rich]

2 minutes ago, Woody said:

I like Rafa alot but i dont think he is the answer. He is better than what we have now.... totally.

The whole club need changing starting with the fat arse upstairs and untill that happens nowt will change and not even a half decent a Rafa will change that.

 

As much as I love Benitez I agree, I just want a new owner, it wouldn’t excite me bringing any a manager in at the moment. But would at least give me hope that we would at least be tactically better 🙈

[Ashez]

Someone's being playing too much of the OME thinking football is just coin flips and getting the right call 😂

[Rich]

This just came in to what’s app group I’m in, interesting, probably not true though.

[JamesVilla]

@RichD  how you feeling for our game? Everything points to a easy villa win so expecting a shit house Newcastle 1-0 😂

[Rich]

Just now, Jsavfc said:

@RichD  how you feeling for our game? Everything points to a easy villa win so expecting a shit house Newcastle 1-0 😂

Not feeling confident at all here, I hate that where on so late, kind of want it to be out of the way early on in the day 😂

You should win and comfortable I think, but like you said anything can happen, nothing surprises me anymore, so I’d take a 1-0 😂

[JamesVilla]

Just now, RichD said:

Not feeling confident at all here, I hate that where on so late, kind of want it to be out of the way early on in the day 😂

You should win and comfortable I think, but like you said anything can happen, nothing surprises me anymore, so I’d take a 1-0 😂

I think your set up helps us, our front 4 will have a lot of space, and with your lack of pace the counter won't be too difficult to defend. Do you know if ASM is back?