Off Topic Euro 2012

[Ashez]

Although its been the defence catching the headlines i believe its the wide players which were poorly picked.

Milner, Downing, AOC, Walcott.

All poor, i can see the reasoning behind Milner and somewhat AOC but players like Sturridge, Lennon, Sinclair and Dyer have been over looked yet they've been quality and out played the people who have gone.

[Jayze]

I've said countless times on Vibe that Welbeck is a poor mans Sturridge.

Which explains why he went to the Euro's and lead the line for his country instead of being on holiday.

@Ashez - holt out scored everyone bar Rooney

@ollie there are far more skilful players than torres taht got far more goals than him, yet I'm sure you're trying to justify Torres' inclusion

Welbeck is a far better player than either defoe or Carroll and he proved against Belgium how deadly he can be. He also works far harder than both of the others put together

I'm sure your opinion has nothing to do with the club he plays for.

I can say the same to you

@Ollie - you proved my point by talking up Torres despite the options that were there and much better than him. And Welbeck is one of the reasons this season has gone so well

Nothing to do with who he plays for, United have got good players....he just isn't one of them.

I'm sure it isn't.

I think Welbeck is better then Sturridge

What, this made me cry. If you watched all our games before Christmas he was our best player. Yes he does have a few tweaks to make like learning how to pass/cross close to the goal. But he was brought up and trained a striker so he was taught that. His finish against Sunderland was one of the most redicilous and confident finishes I have ever seen.

Why he was not included in the England squad is beyond me. Players chosen over him. First Stewart Downing £20 million pounds, no goals, no assists I really don't need to include much more than that. Ox, first let me state I am a huge fan of Ox and in 3-5 years I have no doubt he will be one of the best if not the best winger on the prem. Right now he's just not there. Walcott, Speed f**k all else. States he wants to be Arsenal's striker goes out and gives a smelly to Rvp. No not for me, when as stated above Sturridge drops confidence and would have tucked it away.

I'll take Sturridge over Welbeck any day. If you ask me he should start ahead of Torres next season.

Goodnight

Your yet to say why he's better then Welbeck.

[Mysterion]

Here's a fun statistic

Welbeck at Sundlerland

Appearances:28

Goals:6

Sturridge at Bolton

Appearances:12

Goals:8

Half the appearances, more goals at a worse team. Jay, there you go but you won't reply.

[rayjayokocha]

Half would be 14 apps

[United58]

Look here

A few people on there don't rate him.(most do but now you've seen more then me who don't rate him)

Defoe is underrated (number 7)

Joe Dodgson

Andy Carroll overrated as a player and as a person..

Cartilage Free Captain

Seventhpool To Buy An Overrated English Striker: Hey, Jermain Defoe. How would you like to never walk alone? What's that? No, the fans aren't racist. I would, however, recommend paying that young lad to watch you car for you. Yes, Liverpool seem to be interested in acquiring Defoe's service

And before you say that's only their opinion, so was your link. The people you quote aren't even football writers. You can find any drivel on the internet, this site proves that to me a lot.

Ollie, if this was one of our best ever seasons, how were we so reliant on Scholes? And if this was one of our best ever seasons, Danny must be one of our best ever forwards as he's in our starting eleven?

Welbeck had one decent attempt against Belgium

And he took it, beautifully.

I think Welbeck is better then Sturridge

Could not agree more, and that came from a Liverpool fan

@Mysterion - Sunderland were head and shoulders better than Bolton, Sturridge was their only decent finisher. Danny was out left midfield during the loan deal and worked his socks off, as he's doing for England. He was also playing with other top class forwards such as Darren Bent.

England play long ball and no matter who they play up top, most of the time they'll lose the ball lumping it. So someone like Danny, who will put the needs of the teams before his own and run all day makes more sense than someone who if he doesn't scores has a bad day like Defoe. Defoe is a good option only really if you're chasing a game, and even then he's not exactly Michael Owen.

Wayne and Danny got 36 goals together in the PL alone last season. Would you really throw on someone like Andy Carroll, who is incredibly overrated thanks to Liverpool paying £35m for him, just to break up England's best chance of success imo?

Danny has scored at the Emirates, the Etihad and against teams like Tottenham and Chelsea. He's proven himself against the big boys. Wayne and Danny are one of the best partnerships in the PL, Cole-Yorke esque, potentially even better.

Liverpool's team was based around Carroll. Downing was bought for service for the box and Adam was bought for set pieces. Yet Carroll was so bad he was dropped. defoe couldn't get into the spurs team. Yet Danny got into our team, "in one of the best seasons united have ever had" ahead of dimitar and chicharito who are both proven premier league goalscorers.

And when England go out to a technically superior team there will be the predictable complaints about the long ball strategy. Even during the "golden generation" with players such as Scholes and beckham Heskey, the long ball veteran, couldn't capitalise. So why not play your players who not only are the best, but play the best football and have a proven partnership in Wayne and Danny?

This all still stands. At the end of the day, I couldn't really care less what England do. Their fans spend the whole season booing Wayne because he plays for United then hoping he can score and lift the team whenever England play. And it always just happens to be his fault whenever England don't play well.

If you want to play Carroll and long ball, off with you. England aren't United; ultimately I don't care if they're knocked out of the group or reach the final. But the choice is good football (like everyone's been screaming for) with Danny or long ball with Carroll (we all know how long ball has turned out with England). Choose wisely.

And to those who inexplicably think Danny can't finish...

If you're comparing ability I would say Welbeck is best out of choices.

BBC Sport on Danny:

Star performer right from the start. Looks completely at home in international football at the highest level

Alan Shearer:

I would say Welbeck was our man of the match. I am sure Roy Hodgson would have been delighted with the first 25-30 minutes, in particular Danny Welbeck, who was giving the back four all sorts of problems.

He was running in behind, coming short, turning Philippe Mexes and using his pace. The French did not do that but Welbeck was full of it and their defenders did not like it."

Martin Keown:

Danny Welbeck put in a really mature performance, which was a credit to his club Manchester United and the way they have brought him up. His movement was excellent and he played intelligently, running into space and holding up the ball well. France's centre-halves Philippe Mexes and Adil Rami will have known they have been in a game.

Exactly.

[Ashez]

Yep says something when our man of the match star striker can't even manager a shot all game... Where as Carroll would of had a handfull due to the amount of crosses whipped in and the dodgeyness of the French CB's

[United58]

So you're blaming England's best player on the fact he didn't manage a shot, when Gerrard was in the middle (supposedly) creating the chances. If Danny had chances and missed you could say something, but he's not a one man team, team players work with the team (look at his goal v Belgium)

I'm siding with the professional pundits, Broadcast corporations and writers ahead of the fans on this one

[Ashez]

But a strikers job is to have shots right? So if he's not having shots and creating chances how's he doing his job? I'm pretty sure Defoe managed a shot in his cameo never mind nearlly a full 90mins.

[United58]

A striker's main job is to finish what he's given. The midfielders are meant to create

[Ashez]

Well the other attacking players had chances created for them....So i guess Welbeck can't put himself in the right position..

[United58]

Danny got into some fantastic positions, Milner sent in a good ground ball which Méxes did well to just about get to i and knock it out for a corner.

An England legend, Alan Shearer, was talking up Danny, who played in the same position. So were the BBC, so was Martin Keown. Hodgson started him ahead of Defoe and Carroll. I'm on their side.

[rayjayokocha]

How does that work? He could be in the positions but the other players haven't passed to him.

Every striker needs service at every level.

[United58]

He could be in the positions but the other players haven't passed to him.

Exactly. If he's getting man of the match he's doing something right.

[Ashez]

Well how about have your own opinion or is that to much hard work?

Pundit Britian!!! So many times people quote or stick to what some washed up old man says and thinks, they are there as pundits to share there opinion not to lay down the law.

I'm not pushing Carroll for England but he deserves a chance at least, my problem is Welbeck purely aint good enough, Welbeck couldn't manage a chance even though he had a decent league season, yet Torres the striker who's back you keep jumping on created a handfull of chances even though he hasn't been far off the worst striker in the league.

Obviously there is no point in having chances if you can't score them but like they say you can't win the raffle with out getting a ticket, and so far Welbeck hasn't brought a ticket.

[United58]

Well how about have your own opinion or is that to much hard work?

Have you not read what I've been posting? No one was slating Ollie when he copied and pasted whole articles. I only started posting others' opinions to back up my own.

my problem is Welbeck purely aint good enough

The manager of England disagrees, and he's getting into our team ahead of Chicharito and Dimitar. You have your opinion, I have mine, that's fine. Danny also got man of the match.

Torres the striker whose back you keep jumping

No, I cited Torres as Ollie is defending him yet thinks it's wrong for me to defend Danny. It's all opinions

even though he hasn't been far off the worst striker in the league.

I've never said something like that, and you say I jump on his back?

created a handfull of chances

He's playing with Xavi and Iniesta, and he missed his clear cut chances poorly. Those are the facts, and from that I don't think he's good enough to play for SPpain atm, that's my opinion, you can defend him if you want, I'm not stopping you are saying "he's not good enough" outright.

Pundit Britian!!! So many times people quote or stick to what some washed up old man says and thinks, they are there as pundits to share there opinion not to lay down the law.

They are paid to do it, and the reason they're paid is because they're quite good at it. Wouldn't be in the business otherwise

[Ollie]

Yet again Patrick has ignored me.

From what I saw of the match, Danny was standing around for most of it rather than helping out in trying to win the ball back in the middle. And only was active when England were on the attack.

AOC on the other hand was going back and forth constantly and barely anyone has recognised what he had done. The only thing he couldn't do was get past the defence of France because every time he made a run they swept out his legs preventing him from creating any decent opportunity. So too me Welbeck was not as effective as AOC, AOC even battled with Ribery to win the ball off of him.

You're point about Liverpool paying £35million for Carroll is because they wanted to it was because they HAD too. Ashley was not going to let there top scorer for the season go on the cheap and as of all the attention Ashley was going to get as much as he could.

And Patrick it is all well and good for you to go with the people at the 'top' but as Ashez said they are only there to share their opinions which is what we are doing. And no body likes a sycophant.

Ollie, if this was one of our best ever seasons, how were we so reliant on Scholes?

Because without him your midfield would have been overrun by everyone!

And if this was one of our best ever seasons, Danny must be one of our best ever forwards as he's in our starting eleven?

First off that is not a question, nor a rhetorical one at that. Secondly that still doesn't explain why he was chosen over Berbatov, your top scorer last season and Hernandez who had your 2nd best goals to game ratio this. Just because he runs a lot and scores very little goals as a striker does not make him good. Personally, I would rather have Berbatov starting for me as he is a proven goalscorer. Probably go as far as saying I would have Carroll ahead of Welbeck in my team too.

First full season in the EPL goals:

10/11 Carroll- Played 26, Scored 13. (Combined EPL total for both Newcastle and Liverpool)

10/11 Welbeck- Played 26, Scored 6. (Loan at Sunderland)

Same amount of games twice the goals. Albeit this season Welbeck surpassed Carroll. But then again you will have to compare the teams played at.

For England

Carroll has played 4 scored 1

Welbeck has played 5 scored 1

Carroll once again bests Welbeck in goals per game.

The Torres point that Ashez made, he still had those chances. And in fact had more chances created by and made for in 15 minutes for Spain than Welbeck did in 90 minutes!

[United58]

Because without him your midfield would have been overrun by everyone!

We smashed Barcelona, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea without him. Stop embarrassing yourself, you post like a five year old throwing his toys out the pram. No team can enjoy "one of their best seasons ever" relying on one man. Did Scholes score the goals? Did Scholes play in goal? Did Scholes do the defending? No. Please do understand what's going onn before attempting to post. Your desperation to censure us is the apex of bitter hatred.

AOC even battled with Ribery to win the ball off of him.

They were playing on the same wing, you genius of opposite day.

rather than helping out in trying to win the ball back in the middle

Maybe because he was playing up front? With Young playing off him? Or is that too much for your ABU fueled stupidity to comprehend? You probably would have complained England had no outlet up front if he was helping out England's inept, in comparison to the French midfield, midfield.

that still doesn't explain why he was chosen over Berbatov

Can you not accept that Danny is better than Dimitar? I mean, you seem to think that Ferguson starts Danny for absolutely no good reason. He starts because he's BETTER. When the facts are staring you in the face you turn a blind eye.

And then you literally, literally, compare a winger's goalscoring feats to a striker's, who was Newcastle's focal point during his spell there. Literally.

I would have Carroll ahead of Welbeck in my team

If you're comparing ability I would say Welbeck is best out of choices

Sigh. This is ridiculous. You're perpetuating your obtusity in the face of an altruistic argument with your antithesis.

Don't bother replying, I'm fed up of your blatant hypocrisy and failure to even proof read what you're posting or have posted. I have better things to be doing than proving someone who argues by sticking their fingers in their ear and shouting "LA LA LA" until everyone else agrees wrong. Don't debate if you can't, and learn what's going on before you post. Good day.

[rayjayokocha]

Patrick, please calm down, your not doing yourself any favours.

[Jayze]

Sorry Ray, but I'm getting sick and tired of Ollie now. EVERY single point one of us makes he then comments, with some of the time complete rubbish. Paka just ignore him, the more you reply the more he's won.

HOWEVER ONE POINT I NEED TO MAKE

Ollie, you say that the past season has been a best ever season?

2011/2012

League-2nd

FA Cup-4th Round

Champions League-Group Stage

League Cup-Quarter Finals

2010/2011

League-Winners

FA Cup-Semi Final

Champions League-Runners Up

League Cup-Quarter Finals

2009/2010

League-2nd

Champions League-Quarter Finals

FA Cup-3rd Round

League Cup-Winners

2008/2009

League-Winners

FA Cup-Semi Finals

Champions League-Runners Up

League Cup-Winners

Community Shield-Winners

Euro Super Cup-Runners Up

Club World Cup-Winners

How was that one of our best years when we won nothing!

[Jayze]

Sorry Ray, but I'm getting sick and tired of Ollie now. EVERY single point one of us makes he then comments, with some of the time complete rubbish. Paka just ignore him, the more you reply the more he's won.

HOWEVER ONE POINT I NEED TO MAKE

Ollie, you say that the past season has been a best ever season?

2011/2012

League-2nd

FA Cup-4th Round

Champions League-Group Stage

League Cup-Quarter Finals

2010/2011

League-Winners

FA Cup-Semi Final

Champions League-Runners Up

League Cup-Quarter Finals

2009/2010

League-2nd

Champions League-Quarter Finals

FA Cup-3rd Round

League Cup-Winners

2008/2009

League-Winners

FA Cup-Semi Finals

Champions League-Runners Up

League Cup-Winners

Community Shield-Winners

Euro Super Cup-Runners Up

Club World Cup-Winners

How was that one of our best years when we won nothing!

[United58]

Because if it wasn't then it would make Danny look good, and abus can't have that

[Jayze]

And also Kevin-see I did reply, thanks for predicting so boldly what I would, and wouldn't do-Your missing out how Danny was playing second fiddle to BOTH Darren Bent and Asamoah Gyan. If those 2 were at Bolton, Sturridge wouldn't have played as much.

Say's it all. Champions League final, did Sturridge even come on?

In our biggest game of the season Danny started.

And, Ash if you can't see that Danny is supremeley talented then you need looking at! :lol: And, so your blaming Welbeck for the lack of creativity. Also, Ollie another point 'from what you were watching Danny stood around blardy blah, and Ox was running up and down'.......Yes.... Ox plays on the WING. It's there job to do that, besides seeing as most people gave Danny MOM he must have done something right. Jesus Vibe at times.

[Ashez]

If Welbeck wasn't English he wouldn't have played as much for United or he wouldn't be so highly rated, if he was Spanish etc you would have turned on him by now, your United ffs and your dropping last season top goal scorer and replacing which with a second rate player.

Its like Arsenal dropping RVP to play a headless chicken up front.

Welbecks decent, not world class but he's nowhere near good enough for United, Sunderland was his level. If Welbeck stayed at Sunderland would he have been picked? Would he hell.

[rayjayokocha]

The best thing to do is just leave it if that's how you feel Jay. Same with you Patrick.

Jay, Patrick and Ollie, please either discuss it properly without little insults at one another or don't discuss it at all.

Thank you.

Welbecks decent, not world class but he's nowhere near good enough for United, Sunderland was his level. If Welbeck stayed at Sunderland would he have been picked? Would he hell.

Welbeck or Bendtner?...No brainer for me, Danny all day.

[Ashez]

Sorry i ment for England not club level.

[rayjayokocha]

Oh right lol, sorry.

[Jayze]

If Welbeck wasn't English he wouldn't have played as much for United or he wouldn't be so highly rated, if he was Spanish etc you would have turned on him by now, your United ffs and your dropping last season top goal scorer and replacing which with a second rate player.

Its like Arsenal dropping RVP to play a headless chicken up front.

Welbecks decent, not world class but he's nowhere near good enough for United, Sunderland was his level. If Welbeck stayed at Sunderland would he have been picked? Would he hell.

Dear lord. Where to start with this one.

So he's only playing because he's English, and if he wasn't English he wouldn't be playing for us? How the hell have you worked that out? Get a grip.

Your United ffs. Elaborate?

Second rate? Yep so second rate, he was trusted to lead the line by himself at Anfield as well as at City TWICE! He was also picked ahead of Andy Carrol and Jermain Defoe. He's so second rate.

How the hell is he a headless chicken?

Embarrasing Ash.

[Ashez]

Your to wrapped up in your perfect United universe to see anything outside of it so whats the point?

If he wasn't English you'd be calling for his head due to his poor goal return, if Hernandez was English you'd be screaming for him to be played instead.

Hernandez and Berb are 10 times the player Welbeck is atm.

What if you didn't have Rooney this season can you honestly say you'd be happy with Welbeck uptop? Would he have nearlly won you the title?

Carroll was Roys first striker pick in charge of England so that point is shit while Defoe's head wouldn't have been in the game, but when he did ge on the pitch he at least troubled France's goal.

[Jayze]

No. If you give an actual point that makes sense I will lsiten, if you just throw pathetic accusations about then I won't listen to you.

That is ridicolous to even suggest that. Why and more importantly when have United fans ever prefered English players? Bloody hell, we've stuck with a keeper who's 20 after a poor start, who's from SPAIN. We've been open to express our love for two wingers. Nani and Valencia- PORTUGAL AND ECUADOR. You don't here every single fan saying how Ashley Young should be in the team do you?

Berbatov is a better player than Welbeck is. No-one is disputing that, in fact Berbatov is a better forward than 80& of the forwards in the league. However we've been over this a thousand times Ash, he doesn't fit into the way we play now. As for Chico, Fergie has clearly seen something in Danny that he prefers. Not being funny, who'm I going to go with, the best manager in the history of the game or a lad from Shrewsbury?-(Lovely place btw)

Yep, Carrol was his first pick. Danny was his second. Jermain never started either of the friendly's so your own point is invalid. But then again, who started the BIGGEST of the 3 matches? Oh Yes. Danny Welbeck.

Atleast when Ollie makes point generally he's got a bit of evidence to back them up.

[Scott]

Czech Republics right back looks decent.