Off Topic Euro 2012

[Dec]

Welbeck had one shot in the tournament, yes it was a goal but as the main striker for the majority of the tournament that is poor. His link up play and movement was good but not in the areas in which it counts, Welbeck has a long way to go still for England to prove his place.

Also Carroll showed a willingness to track back and apply pressure on Pirlo that Rooney and Welbeck never, also when defending for long periods managed to relieve pressure by winning a clearance and holding play up. I'm sure them few moments were useful in keeping the game 0-0.

[Jayze]

That's not true. I saw on 1 occasion Welbeck had the ball of the line yesterday and another when he actually cleared up at the back.

He also had a shot yesterday.

Head*

[Franco]

Thanks Ben least not all England fans are as bitter as the random ones I wound up last night :lol:

Italy had a good game just a shame they couldn't finish their chances, beautiful shot by De Rossi in the opening part, was surprised Diamanti came on instead of Di Natale but he did do well when he came on, thought Montolivo would have gone off instead of De Rossi but both had a good game, Buffon and Pirlo are simply amazing, thought we deserved the win bar the poor finishing especially the De Rossi chance straight in front of goal. Should be out against Germany though but Semis are good as people were making us a major doubt for going through groups.

[Sunny]

I'm not sure but I think Dec's referring to pressing on the Italian defenders/midfielders rather than just clearances?

[Dec]

2 shots in the tournament isn't impressive at all. Glen Johnson had that many at least.

Also they were set pieces, they don't count. I mean actual defensive display in tracking back to neutralise their main threat; Pirlo, neither Rooney nor Welbeck did this often and it caused a lot of dangerous situations in defence. When Carroll came on he played aggressive football charging around and closing players down early and often forced Pirlo to pass the ball quickly or lose it.

[Sunny]

Do England have this kind of player at all? An attacking midfielder/forward that would put pressure on, in this case, Pirlo?

Maybe Rooney? But he didn't have a good game, did he?

[Ollie]

That role was supposed to be Rooney for last night. But he nor Welbeck done that. Carroll came on and was pressuring Pirlo every chance he had.

Franco I said Italy deserved the win

[Dec]

Rooney is too lazy to be a pressure player, he was good at it for a while but now as demonstrated last night and in the Champions League final in 2011 doesn't bother as much.

Lampard could have done the job if not injured, so could Gerrard if we had a better defensive minded player to partner Parker. Other than them though I wouldn't say so. Carroll seemed to do a good job tracking back though and making a nusiance of himself, though I feel this was more for the need to prove himself than because he wanted to.

[Sunny]

Any chance Hodgson actually saw the problem and instructed Carroll to do so?

[Dec]

The problem was there at half time though, so unless Rooney/Welbeck were ignoring Hodgson then maybe not. He could have done though, but it was late in the game that he did so when Pirlo was influencing from the first minute and up until the 70th-80th when Carroll came on nothing was being done.

[Jayze]

Wayne Rooney is not lazy. He's seen at United playing Right Back half the time! He's played 135 minutes since the 13th May going into that game.

[Dec]

Not meaning to question your obvious football knowledge over professional writers but that is what Michael Cox said as well.

"Rooney was much sloppier, and after half an hour when Pirlo’s dominance had become clear, Joe Hart was clearly heard shouting at Rooney to pick him up. Hodgson clearly wanted Rooney to do this, because for much of the game Rooney could be seen half-heartedly jogging towards Pirlo. It was reminiscent of the 2011 Champions League final, where he started off marking Sergio Busquets, before gradually leaving Manchester United outnumbered in midfield.

It’s odd that Rooney’s tactical indiscipline has become such a problem – only a few years ago his willingness to sacrifice his own attacking game for the good of the team was reagrded as one of his main qualities. England could have done with someone like Rooney’s club teammate, Park Ji-Sung, who did a superb job on Pirlo in 2009/10 – Urby Emanuelson did something similar for Milan earlier this year. Leaving Pirlo free was suicidal, and he completed over 30 more passes than any other player."

He isn't the same Rooney of years ago where he would have willingly gone and closed a man down with a bit of fire in his belly, that is the Rooney we needed however he didn't. Rooney had no determination to win the ball or play a defensive game. This has nothing to do with him playing not many matches (half of that is his fault as he got banned!)

Where did you find this about Rooney half the time playing at right back?

[Jayze]

Obviously it's not exactly half the time. However you do find him tracking back a lot. Obviously, you won't see it as much as a United fan mind.

[Dec]

Please tell me if he tracks back a lot why is he so central on average in his last 90 minutes for United (v Sunderland)? On average look how high he is! In that match he made 2 tackles and 0 interceptions so just shows he doesn't track back as much as you say.

[Jayze]

Danny Welbeck didn't play. He was the lone striker. Of course he had to stop up-front otherwise we'd have no-one there.

[Dec]

On average last season Rooney made 0.8 tackles per game and 0.6 interceptions. I wouldn't really call that tracking back a lot else I'd expect it to be 1-2.

Here we are, the 4-4 v Everton which Welbeck played.

If Rooney tracks back so much why is he again so high up and literally on the shoulder of his parter who according to you needs to stay up?

[Jayze]

I've said all along. Stats don't tell half the story. If a player scores 30 goals, yet has over 100 attempts all year, is that good? No.. I get your point, he has mellowed in that aspect, however to brand him lazy is nonsence.

[Dec]

He is lazy in his defensive duty, not attacking but defensive. As Michael said "he lightly jogs to pressure" doesn't sprint with the desire he used to.

[rayjayokocha]

This relates to the Euros, so am posting it here: Sore losers?

It really is a joke tbh!

[Jayze]

I think the main trouble is while people bang on about how Premier League is the best in the world when you actually think about it, it's only good due to foreign players for example. With the excpetion of United, in the top 6 teams who's best player last year was English? Possibly Chelsea, however apart from that none. Until English players are dominating English teams we're in trouble.

[Ollie]

^^^ That so much.

There are the likes of Walcott, Oxlade, Wilshere (be it he was injured most of last season) who all can make it at first team level for top clubs but as of age being overcast as of more experienced 'better' players.*

However, Jay that last bit is incorrect. Should be until English players are dominating the 'Top English Teams' But yes I do agree with your point

*Only top young English stars who were not getting regular appearances last season I could think of, off the top of my head.

[Jayze]

Cleverley.

[Ollie]

Wasn't he first team until he got injured? That is why I left him out of that list

[Jayze]

So was Wilshere.

[Ollie]

*Only top young English stars who were not getting regular appearances last season I could think of, off the top of my head.

Wilshere played 0 last year. Cleverly played 15

[Jayze]

Surely then you shouldn't have put Wilshere in that list. He didn't get any.

[Ollie]

But he was fit for a month and put on the subs bench yet still didn't get played

But he was fit for a month and put on the subs bench yet still didn't get played

[ImABlueToo]

Well people know who to blame for the amount of foreign players don't you? The lower league clubs. If they weren't expecting so much for their players the top clubs wouldn't have to go abroad for cheap but just as good players. Look at Newcastle they're a perfect example selling the likes of Barton, Milner and Carroll and releasing Smith and Guthrie this current window and have brought in plenty of cheaper options from abroad. But yeah this isn't the English football thread so I'll leave it at that.

[Jayze]

RIO FERDINAND believes England missed a golden opportunity to properly blood two of their future stars at Euro 2012

The Manchester United defender was completely baffled that his versatile 20-year-old club-mate Phil Jones did not get a kick in the tournament.

And he was scratching his head too when Arsenal’s 18-year-old Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, having started in the opening Group D game against France, was barely seen again.

Ferdinand said: “If you take the youngsters to a competition like this, you should get them out there and see what they are made of.

“I am a fan of The Ox and I wanted to see more of him but in the end he finished up as a spectator.

“He was almost in the same position Theo Walcott was when he was picked for the 2006 World Cup.

“Phil Jones is one of the most adaptable players we have in our country and where was he?

“When we need to take the ball from midfield, run 40 yards with it and put the other team on the back foot, he is the man for the job.

“Instead, we stayed cautious and Jordan Henderson was used instead.

“That’s not a criticism of Jordan, he is a different player to Phil, but I thought it showed we were being too conservative.

“It sends a message to the opponents that you are more interested in defending and playing on the counter-attack than making them scared of you.

“The other thing is that Phil was in the squad before Jordan, who was a stand-by player.

“I’m reading a lot of stuff about how it’s time to get the youngsters in and all of that but you only find out if they can do it when you throw them in there.

“What did we learn about Alex and Phil at this tournament?

“Do we know how much influence Alex can have on a game in a finals?

“He did fairly well against France, so why not persist with him and let him grow into it?

“As for Phil, we will now have to wait until the 2014 World Cup in Brazil, provided we qualify, to see how good he can be at the highest level. Expectations were low so the manager had a free shot to find out about our youngsters and I feel it was a missed opportunity.”

Ferdinand also cannot understand why United pal Michael Carrick was not persuaded to go to the championships.

Carrick had told the FA he no longer wanted to be considered just as a squad man and Hodgson did not try to change his mind.

Ferdinand said: “People have been talking about the huge influence of Andrea Pirlo for Italy against us but our own Pirlo was on a beach somewhere.

“Michael was the man to create for us and we left him behind.

“When we faced Pirlo for United against AC Milan a couple of seasons ago, our gaffer stuck Park Ji-Sung on him and he never let him out of his sight. We won the game 4-0 and I bet when Pirlo woke up the next day he thought Park was lying beside him he had stayed that close.

“Pirlo is always dangerous when he is allowed time and space but the way to try and stop him is to get someone near to him.

“Mind you, that isn’t always easy and the way he played, at the age of 33, gives all us over 30s hope. He’s an inspiration.

“If Pirlo was English would he have made the squad let alone been on the pitch?

“I don’t know as his qualities may have been overlooked... not by just the current manager but maybe those before him too.”

Ferdinand reckons England need to show more ambition next time out while also learning to hold on to the ball. He said: “The only time we really kept the ball properly was when Danny Welbeck dropped short to collect it and linked the play.

“But, usually, he was having to stay up and wasn’t allowed to drop too much because we had set out a certain way with a 4-4-2 which didn’t offer a great deal of flexibility.

“At United we play 4-4-2 but we also change it depending on how the game’s doing to 4-3-3 or 4-5-1.

“It’s OK saying we were very good defensively and hard to beat but if you set out to be defensive then that’s your first priority.

“It makes it very hard for the attacking players in the team though.

“I’d love to see us running at other teams. I want to see Alex and Theo and Adam Johnson, who I thought should have gone too, causing problems instead of worrying about covering back as the first thought.

“And I want us to get Danny on the ball more like he does for United.”

Ferdinand added: “The most damming statistic of them all was that one which showed our best passing combination was between Joe Hart and Andy Carroll.

“That would have been bad enough if Carroll had played the whole game but it’s even worse when you realise he came on as sub after an hour.

“We are better than that, nobody can be proud of that stat.”

But what of Ferdinand’s Old Trafford team-mate Wayne Rooney, who yet again struggled to impose himself on a major tournament having been suspended for the first two group games against France and Sweden.

The defender has an obvious solution.

Ferdinand, who was talking to The Sun courtesy of New Era Global Sports Management, added: “Wayne is our best player, he’s world-class and we have to build the team round him, not get him to fit in with it.

“Barcelona are geared to getting Lionel Messi on the ball in dangerous areas as much as possible. Everything they do works to that end.

“If we are to go forward, making Wayne a more central figure has to be the way.”

Can't say I disagree.

[Dec]

Carrick rejected a call up I heard.