Sign in to follow this Followers 6 Taff and FF Presents: FMM18 Less Known Wonderkids XI FuddledFox November 15, 2017 30 replies 6,979 Views Report · Posted November 15, 2017 Taff and FF Present: FMM18 Less Known Wonderkids XI Wonderkids, for many of us they make a save special. That talented teenager who has been at the club since a boy and it’s you who gives him his big break in the first team. With nurture and care a wonderkid can become world class and will be the player you still remember 5 years from now as your favourite FMM18 player. @Taff and I decided we would put our heads together and come up with an team of potential wonderkids and see how they develop playing together at one of the world’s biggest clubs. We didn’t want to use the usual suspects though so you won’t find Mbappe, Donnarumma etc in our team. We hope we will bring to your attention some of the less well known but very talented youngsters in the game. This is our team. There are no guarantees that all these players will become world class but they certainly look good prospects. We based our picks on who we liked the look of but we would also like to thank @Stam who gave us some excellent pointers based on his great work compiling this https://fmmvibe.com/forums/topic/40677-fmm18-wonderkids-complete-list/ We decided to bring all these players to Real Madrid so they could benefit from the world class facilities and the beautiful weather in Madrid. The leagues loaded were England, Germany, France and Spain. They didn’t prove to be a cheap bunch of players to buy. These prices should only be seen as a guide as although Taff tried to get the best price, the Real Madrid factor does push up the price in our opinion. You may find you can get some of these players cheaper or they may even cost more if you are a club in the same nation as the selling team. Taff: Now the overall plan is simple, I managed the team over the first year and to see how our youngsters develop, then I simmed through 5 years and grabbed shots of how they look and then finally ahead 10 years and see what our players look like in their late 20’s early 30’s Let’s see what happened. FF is going to give you a short Bio of the players and then I will talk you through how they look in the game. Alex Meret – Udinese: When you think of young Italian goalkeepers you probably automatically think of Donnarumma. Alex Meret is the other great prospect to take Buffon’s crown as Italy’s No1. Udine born and bred he has come up through Udinese youth teams but has yet to make a senior appearance for the club. He has been on loan at SPAL in Seria B for the last 2 seasons. He has been capped for Italy’s Under 17s and Under 19’s and also made the full Italy squad in March 2017 but never played. Taff: Spoiler After @azmiG26’s great article regarding the well-known young Italian GK Donnarumma and this young lad, his reputation is up a little, but me and Foxy (always loved a man in Wellies) decided this would be a great chance to see how this particular goalie can develop in FMM 18. His stats show great potential with greens in aerial, agility, handling and reflexes. His kicking and throwing could be a major concern but unlike most strikers Goalkeepers tend to hit their peak later in life, so plenty of time to get those up with some IT. His Physical stats are all in the Blue, and stamina isn’t a major concern for me with my GK’s but his strength needs improving. Benjamin Henrichs – Bayer Leverkusen: A versatile player who can play in both full back positions and central midfield. We have him in his natural position as a right back. Benjamin is a regular in the Leverkusen team having made his debut vs Dortmund in September 2015. He has been capped at senior level by Germany and made his debut against San Marino in an 8-0 win. In 2016 he won the prestigious Fitz Walter medal as the best German Under 19s player. Taff: Spoiler This young stud of a Right Back jumps right out of you, with his tackling, technique, decisions and stamina all in the green, but what makes him stand out for me is his ability to play in multiple positions. I love a CB who can play both sides as I find it always helps when choosing your subs, but the fact that the young German could also be used as a DM, CM or even as a AM, his crossing, dribbling and passing are all just below the green mark and for a 20 year old 15 in decisions is huge, knowing when to back off or when to get stuck in, I think this lad is the future of the RB position Reece Oxford – West Ham United: Reece started his youth career at Tottenham but after his release in 2011 he joined the West Ham Under 13s side. His style of play has been compared to another West Ham Academy graduate Rio Ferdinand. He is currently in Germany playing on loan at Borussia Monchengladbach. He has been capped at all levels up to the Under 20s for England but West Ham refused him permission to play at the recent Under 17s World Cup in Chile. Taff. Spoiler Now this is a young CD I have looked at before but never tried, so I’m personally quite interested to see how he develops. His aerial is good, as I like my defenders to be able to outjump the attackers, and he’s pretty quick with 14 pace, his tackling is 2 points shy of green, and most of his stats look primed to jump nicely over the coming years. Issa Diop – Toulouse: Issa is a product of the Toulouse youth system and has made over 60 appearances for his home town club. He scored his first goal for the club in a 3-0 win over Troyes in December 2015 in only his 2nd appearance for the club. He has played at every level of youth football for the French national team and was part of the team that won the European Under 19s Championship in 2016. He was also included in the team of the tournament. Taff: Spoiler This young lad looks the business for a CD, he has the three green stats I look for in a CD, aerial, tackling and strength. His other stats look good too with his teamwork, positioning and aggression all just below the green marks. I think this young French CD has a very bright future ahead of him Phillip Ochs – Hoffenheim: Phillip won the Fitz Walter silver medal the same year Henrichs won the gold. He can play anywhere on the left hand side of the pitch but we have him as our left back. He has yet to cement himself a place in the Hoffenheim starting 11 every week but has been capped for Germany from Under 15s up to the Under 21s. Taff: Spoiler So we chose another young German in our LB position, and while he might not have as many greens as his counterpart Henrichs, he still looks like a very good young player. My major concern is his aggression, which could be viewed as a great stat for a defender, but it also leads to bookings and other issues, but he does have high teamwork, so he’ll look to bring his teammates into the game and play his heart out. His tackling is in the high blues as well as his pace and stamina, as with our GK, his strength is a concern if he’s getting knocked off the ball, but he also has the ability to play higher up the pitch as well as on the right as a 12 in shooting he could be used as an emergency RIF if you’re stuck Weston McKinnie – Schalke: Having been offered the chance to sign for the FC Dallas senior team after coming through their youth academy, Weston turned down this offer and instead signed for Schalke. He was already familiar with life in Germany having spent 3 years in Kaiserslautern as a child. It was during this time that Weston first started playing football. Weston has earned his first call up to the senior USA squad for this Novembers friendly vs Portugal. Taff: Spoiler With the inclusion of the MLS this year, we thought it would be nice to have one of our American cousins in the starting 11. And so we have Weston “my favourite Cider” McKinnie. At first glance, you can see he has promise, maybe as a BBM, especially with a good high aerial stat, giving him the option to help out at the back, or pop up to head in a few crosses at the other end. His teamwork stat is also a great thing to see, plus the fact that all his other midfield stats are nicely in the blue. I think we can expect big things from this young American. Sander Berge – KRC Genk: At the beginning of January 2017 Sander signed a 4 year contract at KRC Genk and completed the move from Valerenga in his native Norway. He has since become an important member of the Belgian’s team. He won his first cap for Norway in a World Cup qualifier aginst Northern Ireland in March 2017. He comes from a basketball playing family with his Father, Mother and Brother all playing for the Norway national team so its no surprise that Sander is nearly 2m tall. Taff: Spoiler To accompany McKinnie in the midfield we have this young Norwegian Viking, ready to ransack the competition. His starting stats aren’t as impressive as his American partner, but there is plenty of potential, his high blue stats in passing and decisions mean he could develop into a very good young DLP (FF’s favourite spot) Jeremie Boga – Chelsea: As with many Chelsea youngsters Jeremie has spent much of his time away on loan. He has been on loan to Stade Rennes in his native France as well as Granada in Spain and is currently at Birmingham City in the Championship. He has made 1 appearance for the Chelsea 1st team. He started against Burnley in the opening game of the season but was subbed off after 18 minutes after Gary Cahill was sent off. He was capped at youth level for France but has since gone on to make his debut for the Ivory Coast. Taff: Spoiler So when I look for a winger, I look for three traits, crossing, dribbling and pace, and these are all something this young Ivorian has. Don’t get me wrong as I have concerns mostly his teamwork and stamina, but with his three main traits in the green, I’m happy to give this young Chelsea player some room to improve. Joao Felix – Benfica: Portugal is a country that produces excellent attacking players and Joao is one of the next crop of players to come through. He has yet to make an appearance for the Benfica 1st team but he is the youngest player to ever appear for the Benfica B team. He made his Portugal Under 21 debut back in October. Taff: Spoiler Now for the AM position we had multiple options, Horta from SLB Harvertz from Leverkusen, but these guys are fairly well known (especially Harvertz after BatiGoal netted over 1900 goals with him). So we went with someone else, Joao Felix is still only 17 and the youngest of our chosen XI. His stats look decent for a 17 year old kid, with 15 in technique being the stand out, but with 14/13 in Dribbling, Passing and decisions I don’t think it will take him long to join the already impressive list of Portuguese legends. Jacob Bruun Larsen – Borussia Dortmund: We have another player who is based in the Bundesliga. Jacob has only made one appearance for the Dortmund 1st team in the DFB Pokal. He started his career at Lyngby in his native Denmark and moved to Germany in 2015. He was part of the Denmark Olympic team in 2016 making 4 appearance’s at the tournament. Taff: Spoiler While coming up with our starting XI we went through a few players for every position, but the first one we agreed on was this young Dane. Not sure what it was but we both agreed that there was something about him that jumped out at us. He only has one green stat, but a majority of blues, but his young age and the fact he can play with either foot make him an excellent choice as he can play as both a W and IF on either side of the field, plus this kid has lots of time to improve and we are both very excited to see what he can achieve Jean-Kevin Augustin – RB Leipzig: Jean-Kevin made the move from PSG to Leipzig this summer having found his chances in the PSG 1st team blocked by their superstars. He played for France in their European Under 19s triumph in 2016. He was in the team of the tournament, was voted best player at the tournament and also top scored with 6 goals. Since the move to Germany he has been a regular in the team playing 12 games and scoring 4 goals. Taff: Spoiler Now we all know the sort of young strikers we all would love to use, Jesus, Rashford, Isak, but we wanted to stay away from the players everyone knows. So we looked and found this very decent looking Frenchman. Augustin has some great stats for a young forward, including Shooting, Movement and Pace, with his Dribbling and Technique just below the green mark, he could prove to be the best striker for France in the near future. FF: That’s the 11 players we choose to go with. Taff is now going to take you through how they developed whilst I sit back and let him do all the work. Taff: So with all the XI brought to the Bernabeu, we decided that it wouldn’t be fair to ask them to jump straight in as a full starting XI. So we split the 10 outfield players across two teams and then filled the gaps with the world class players Real Madrid has on offer. The main reason for this is we thought it would help their development if they had more seasoned players around them to help out, so we created two squads as shown below, and they were switched every other game (apart from injuries and subs some players got a little more time, but we tried to keep it even. Team 1 Spoiler Team 2 Spoiler So with the squads in place and a starting tactic (this might change over the course of the year) we set off on our journey through 1, 5 and 10 years. Alex Meret: Let’s take a look at how he’s developed after a year of being between the sticks at Real Madrid facing off against some of the best attackers in the world. Spoiler Some good improvements here, his already green stats have jumped up, but now both his decisions and teamwork are both in the green, along with some of those nasty browns turning blue. He was the only player to play every game this season, and he had some nightmare games, but he is still only 21 and has plenty of times to improve. Season 1 Stats – Games Played - 65, Goal (conceded) - 67, Assists - 0, Avg Rating – 6.95 Benjamin Henrichs Let’s have a look at how Henrichs has developed over his first year. Spoiler Looking very strong indeed, both his crossing and dribbling are now in the green, meaning he could work as both FB and WB. His tackling, technique and decisions all at 18 is a huge number for a player of his age, and I predict plenty of good years ahead of him Season 1 Stats – Games Played - 36, Goal - 1, Assists - 9, Avg Rating – 7.36 Philipp Ochs Let’s see how Ochs has grown over his first year. Spoiler Again some nice improvement for this young LB. His physical stats have grown nicely, as well as his tackling and technique, but his biggest improvement has to be the 5 point jump in his decisions meaning he has matured very well over his first year, facing off against some great players, and I hope he can just keep getting better. Season 1 Stats – Games Played - 31, Goal - 0, Assists - 4, Avg Rating – 7.12 Reece Oxford Let’s look at what Oxford has become after a year. Spoiler Not as much improvement as I would have liked, as with the two CB’s his tackling and technique have grown into the greens (just) and his teamwork and stamina as well, but the only other real improvement is his decisions but that is only up two points, but he is younger than his other defenders, so maybe he requires more time to adjust and grow Season 1 Stats – Games Played - 32, Goal - 1, Assists - 1, Avg Rating – 7.18 Issa Diop Let’s have a look at Diop after his first year in Madrid Spoiler Compared to Oxford, Diop has grown very well, yes his technique is still in the blue, but his mental stats have all come up very well, with his decisions, leadership, positioning and teamwork all now in the green spectrum. This kid has all the right stuff to make it as a top choice CD, but only time will tell if he can become a legend of the game. Season 1 Stats – Games Played - 34, Goal - 3, Assists - 2, Avg Rating – 7.14 Weston McKinnie Let’s have a look at how McKinnie has developed over the year. Spoiler Our young American has seen a nice jump in his stats, most notably his passing and movement, he’s played as both a BBM and a CM while I was trying to figure things out, but he’s been a very decent young player and I can only hope this upward trend continues Season 1 Stats – Games Played - 32, Goal - 1, Assists - 3, Avg Rating – 7.03 Sander Berge Let’s see how our little Viking has developed over the first year Spoiler Our little Viking has grown into quite the little warrior, 7 of his stats now sit in the green and all the rest in blue with no ugly brown stats left. His passing, dribbling, decisions, movement and stamina mean this guy could happily play as a CM/BBM/DLP or even an AP. He was slightly injury prone this year, and missed a month or two, but get him going and I think he’ll be unstoppable Season 1 Stats – Games Played - 25, Goal – 0, Assists - 4, Avg Rating – 6.84 Jeremie Boga Let’s have a look to see how Boga has developed while playing out wide for Madrid Spoiler Boga may have been the slowest developing player, with his three green stats growing but the rest remain the same or in the case of his movement and strength actually gone down. He did play well, so not sure why he hasn’t developed as well as some of the others, but his growth (or lack of) doesn’t bode well for the young winger. Season 1 Stats – Games Played - 29, Goal - 8, Assists - 19, Avg Rating – 7.48 Jacob Brunn Larsen Let’s see if our hopes for the young Dane have paid off after his first season Spoiler Now this was the guy I really wanted to see develop, and after a season where he missed over two months with Injury but still came away with the Spanish YPOTY, my hopes were not let down. Yes only two of his stats have moved into the green, but most of his blue stats have taken a nice leap forward, with his passing the best of the bunch jumping 3 points. I look forward to seeing how this young Dane copes with the rest of his career Season 1 Stats – Games Played - 25, Goal - 12, Assists - 9, Avg Rating – 8.16 Joao Felix Let’s see if he has managed to make that leap over the course of his first year Spoiler For the youngest member of our XI, Felix is coming along quite nicely, with his dribbling and passing now in the green, and as you can see from his form he’s been performing very well in the AM position. He is still only 18 and I honestly believe this kid has a huge future in front of him Season 1 Stats – Games Played - 30, Goal - 12, Assists - 21, Avg Rating – 7.83 Jean-Kevin Augustin Let’s see how our young striker has developed over his first year Spoiler Apart from a 1 point jump in his pace, there has been little development form our young French striker, but don’t let the stats fool you, his first season at Real was a successful one with only the big guns of Ronaldo and Bale outscoring him. This young gun will be one of the best strikers in world when he hits his prime so I’d grab him now and let him run your attack for the next 10 years. Season 1 Stats – Games Played - 34, Goal - 27, Assists - 3, Avg Rating – 7.76 Here’s all the team stats from their first season, so you can compare their stats increase vs how they played Spoiler Games Played Goals Assists Average Rating End of Season Info and Awards So not a bad season, and Larsen winning the Spanish YPOTY and POTY speaks volumes about this lad, especially after he missed over two months with Injury, and making the Spanish team of the year along with Augustin and Oxford, these young guns have done very well. Now after the first season finished I resigned my post and left the players’ development to the AI, let’s hop into our time machine and travel to the year 2022 and see what the future holds for our XI players The year is 2022, monkeys have taken over the earth, and football as we know it is played by the slaves with the winner getting to eat the losers are the food…. Or it hasn’t changed at all, either way let’s see how our players have grown over the 5 years since they joined Real, would they all still be there, or have they moved on, would they be getting the game time, or rotting on the bench. Should I stop talking and just show you….OK Alex Meret Spoiler So Meret is still at Real as their #1 choice between the sticks, and has been fairly solid looking at his history conceding 248 goals in 232 games in the four years since I left, avg 1.07 goals per game. His stats have all improved very well with 3 now sitting at maximum on 20, and 2 just shy on 19. Can’t see this guy getting replaced in the next 5 years, so long may he serve the Real Madrid faithful Benjamin Henrichs Spoiler Look at all that green, feel like I’m at a Reggae festival (cough cough). Henrichs is also still at Real after 5 years and getting some good amount of game time as well,, and it’s not hard to see why when you look at those stats, his tackling and decisions sit at the max level, then three 18’s, 2 17’s and 4 15’s this kid looks the absolute business, he has the stats of a great FB, or even a very good DM, his lack of pace means I wouldn’t personally use him as a WB but I can’t see anyone having an issue with such a hard hitting German Machine at the back Philipp Ochs Spoiler Ochs hasn’t had quite the jump as his fellow German, but this could be down to his severe lack of game time. He still looks like a very good LB, but I think with more IT and game time he could be one of the world’s best at his position Reece Oxford Spoiler Oxford is still with the Spanish Giants, but has been sent out on loan back to England for the past two seasons, once at Blackburn and more recently at West Brom. As with Ochs his stats haven’t seen that much of a jump, but he still looks like a solid young option, just maybe not for one of the world’s biggest teams. Issa Diop Spoiler Diop remains in Madrid and unlike his defensive counterpart has remained with the main squad. His game time was limited the first two seasons after my departure, but the last two have seen him gain much more playing time and this will only help his growth. His stats haven’t taken that big of a leap, but he still has some solid green stats in (most) of the right areas, so only time will tell how much he can grow Weston McKennie Spoiler Looking at the healthy growth in his stats, you would think this lad is burning up La Liga, but he’s played only 23 games since my resignation. His passing, tackling, decisions, movement, teamwork and stamina are all looking very good, and any other team might think this lad has all they need in a DM, but sadly the new manager at Real can’t see it and has this great looking talent rotting on the bench, I’m hoping that he eventually gets a move elsewhere, so he can really shine. Sander Berge Spoiler We now come to the first player to have moved on from Real. Berge was sold to French outfit Bordeaux for almost £40M, and it’s not hard to see why, when you look at his stats, all that green and the guy has all the skills needed to play any role across the centre of the park. Let’s hope his upward trend continues Jeremie Boga Spoiler Boga looks, like a lethal Winger, with max stats in dribbling and crossing and 15 pace, he looks like he could give some DB’s some headaches. We also see improvement in his shooting, technique, decisions and movement and also getting some game time at Real, so this good upward trend will only continue Jacob Bruun Larsen Spoiler After his steller first season it’s a real shame to this young lad not being given a chance at Real, even being demoted to the B team before being sent on loan to Southampton. Some of his stats have increased but not to the extent I would have liked, and as with McKennie this guy needs to move on to get the game time he deserves. Joao Felix Spoiler Whoa, now that is some major improvement, looks incredible with two max stats and 2 just under the max mark, this young Portuguese player looks to have developed into a stud of a player, yet he also spent some time on loan, and has managed minimum game time. Will love to see what he becomes in another 5 years, as I can’t imagine there will be many better by the time he hits 27 Jean-Kevin Augustin Spoiler Apart from Meret, Augustin is the only other player who seems to have gotten decent amount of game time, and his stats have seen a nice impressive jump in his stats, dribbling, shooting and movement all maxed out, with passing, aggression, creativity, decisions and pace all sitting pretty in the green, this lad could be a World class talent So there we see how the guys have done over the first 5 years of our experiment, but now once again we must jump into our Time machine, this time the destination is June 10th 2027 Now we find ourselves 10 years into the future from our start point, and the world is still spinning Some of our players showed great improvement 5 years ago, some not so much. Let’s see what a further 5 years has done to our (not so young anymore) players Alex Meret Spoiler Meret is still the #1 keeper at Real, and it’s not hard to see why when he’s conceded less than he’s played over his last 5 seasons. His stats still look good, without too much in the way of growth, but this guys could be your best option at GK if you’re a team looking to get them young and have them at the club for plenty of years to come Benjamin Henrichs Spoiler Henrichs has grown into his role and over the last three seasons seems to have become the #1 option at RB for Real Madrid, and with all of his green stats it’s not hard to see why. Looking for a great player to anchor your team at the RB position then look no further then Benjamin Henrichs Philipp Ochs Spoiler Ochs has had some moving to do, leaving the Spanish Giants the year after we last saw him and joining Italian side Roma, then his 10th season sees him back in Spain but with the Red side of Madrid. He has developed nicely (not as well as Henrichs but still). It’s easy to see why and I’m glad he got to leave Real and get the game time he needed, and he has become a very attractive looking LB, one really worth a look. Reece Oxford Spoiler Oxford is another player who has been on the move, after a few loan stints he ended up at Man U for the measly sum of £5.5M, then after only playing 19 times in 2 seasons, moved to Southampton where he seems to finally be getting some time on the pitch. His stats are decent, but not amazing, so it’s not hard to see why this English CD has struggled at the bigger clubs, but maybe a mid-level club is just where he belongs. Issa Diop Spoiler Diop had been a strong presence at Real for most of the 10 years, but after only 10 appearances in his last season the club sold him to French team AS Monaco for the modest sum of £8M, where he played more than 40 games. Unlike Oxford his stats are pretty impressive, with 7 greens (2 of which are maxed). So maybe with a full time IT regime, Diop could become a world class CD Weston McKennie Spoiler The American midfielder has also been on the move, after struggling to break into the first team at Real, he was shipped off to Italian team AC Milan for £15M, there he managed to get some time playing and having a couple of decent seasons, but then AC Milan cashed in for double what they paid for him and sold him to Chinese side Shanggang for £30M and his first season there saw him grab an avg rating of 7.59 netting 3 and laying on 5 assists. So fancy some American talent in your team, try this guy and see what he can do for you. Sander Berge Spoiler When last we left the team 5 years ago, Berge was the only player who had moved on Joining French team Bordeaux, where he stayed until 3 years ago when the talented Norwegian got a move back to Spain to play for Sevilla, where he seems to have come into his own. He still has some great looking stats and I think this guy could become a fantastic addition to most teams who need a solid versatile CM Jeremie Boga Spoiler Boga is the first player since Meret and Henrichs who we find still at Real, he seems to have been used quite sparingly but is getting some play time, and he still looks like a very good option out on the wing, even if his physical stats don’t look all that impressive. Jacob Bruun Larsen Spoiler This one really breaks my heart, this kid played extremely well for me in his first season and if you remember won the Spanish POTY, and to see him fallen so hard, after a few loan spells, Larsen finds himself back in Denmark after being released by Real after 2 games in the 2022/23 season. He’s been a mane stay at AaB, but this guy should be flying high in some much bigger club, but sadly it’s not to be for him. His stats still look great (apart from his physicals) and I believe with proper nurturing this guys could be a killer addition to any squad Joao Felix Spoiler Now the pick of the bunch, another player who got left behind by the Real management, but a good £67M move to Juventus has seen Felix get much more game time and form his history has been fairly impressive, especially his second season at Juventus netting 7 and laying on 18 assists for his team mates. His stats look amazing and he’s really in his stride now as he’s hit his peak age and there’s still plenty of years left in him, so snap him early Jean-Kevin Augustin Spoiler Now this is both sad and confusing, after simming the 10 years I could not find Augustin anywhere, might be a bug, but I believe he may have retired early due to injuries. Everytime I simmed a year I liked to check on our XI and Augustin was constantly injured, so while he looked like a very good striker, be warned that he may hamper your team with persistant inuries So one more jump in my glorious time machine Ah back to good old 2017, wait why is Donald Trump the President of America, oh god no I must have caused a terrible tear in the space time continuum, oh no wait, that actually happened Back to you Foxy (I still love a man in wellies) FF: There we have it then, a mixed set of results for our chosen 11. It’s very possible that with your own expert management some of the players that under performed would do much better. As we all know the AI doesn't always do these players justice in how they develop and use them. Saying that we have some real belters in our list. We would both like to know your thoughts on our chosen 11. Have you been using some of these guys in your own save and how are they doing? Have we inspired you buy some of these lads and see how they develop for you. I would like to take the opportunity to thank @Taff. I approached him a couple of weeks ago with an idea of doing an ‘wonderkids XI’ article and he was on board straight away. Since then he has come up with lots of great ideas and has really put 100% into this article. I hope it wasn’t to traumatic working with me mate Thank you for reading 9 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this with others!